Plasma Everywhere? And the 30K/40K interactions...

So, started the post on my tablet running the mobile Blogger app....  Have to say that was a failure.  No automatic saving of what you are typing, and flipping between apps on the device apparently does at some random point simply erase everything you have typed...  Lesson learned.  Blogging from the mobile device is emergency only, and the web site itself does not work on Chrome , so...  Woo Hoo!  Guess Google is behind on their own standards :-)  ah well...

So, after playing a fair number of games with the Heresy era Legion...  The one thing I am looking at changing is to bring a Tactical Support Squad loaded out with Plasma guns.  Yes, a 15 point upgrade per Trooper, but...  It is a Plasma Gun, so Str 7, AP 2 and likely 2 shots each at 12" range?  Yes, I will take some casualties from my own weapons, but the Medic (Apothecary) for the FnP roll should help...  And provide another 2+ save body to help for the inevitable HtH...

Thus far, I have been running EVERY SGT...  OK, EVERY body I can get into Artificer Armor in that armor.  The big squads with 2-4 of them in the Squad make for an annoyingly difficult thing to take off the table.  Power Weapons where I can as well.  Finding that there is a LOT more HtH when everyone is fielding Marines and thus not a lot of weapons that efficiently deal with 3+ armor.  Challenges, massed attacks, etc. are all pretty important, but the simple ability to deny an Armor save is the thing that is winning more combats for my lads in the 6th...

Which leads to another sort of observation...  The Legions are REALLY well focused on dealing with Xenos.  Well, 5+ armor and to a great extent 4+ and worse really...  Things like the Volkite weapons are BRUTAL against IG, Tyranid or Eldar swarm type armies, but mostly an afterthought against 3+ bodies.  Yes, eventually they cause a few casualties, but so often I have a 10 man Tactical Support Squad (TSS) open up on a group of Marines in the open and...  Do effectively nothing, maybe get 1-3 casualties out of the massed Volkite fire.  One reason I am looking at swapping for Plasma.  At least with the Plasma I get some casualties and take out a big chunk of most squads that are trying to assault my position.  And I can overload with things like the Havoc Launchers for a lot of Str 5 AP 5 blast markers...  Yes, I intend to build a few to put on my Rhino Hulls (magnetized)...  Something about having 30+ Rhino Hulls, repainting a bunch of them in the old Wolves Legion colors is not going to have ANY impact on my other Marine armies.  But again, AP 5, so unlikely to actually DO much against my primary Heresy Era enemies...

Think that is probably the biggest issue I have with the Legion lists.  Everything is so focused, nothing is really a generalist or "Swiss Army Knife".  Tactical Squads are just Bolters, no Heavy/Special weapons at all.  The Heavy and Support Squads are all armed with the same weapons, so all Volkite Calvers, Plasma Guns, Missile Launchers or whatever...  On one level, that makes it simple and if you KNOW what you are facing, you can build a specific counter.  But I MUCH prefer a more generalist approach.  My Grey Hunter squads in 40K have a little of everything.  Rifle, Pistol, Sword, a Flamer or Melta in the Squad, likely a Power Weapon and/or a hidden Werewolf to multiply their HtH presence and riding in a Razorback for Heavy Weapon support.  So, the small squad has the ability to move independently, support others like themselves and actually DO a fair amount of damage on the field...  Yes, far less resilient than the giant 20 man squads, but standing off and firing the Las Cannon/Plasma into them, the new Wolves will cause a few casualties without any possibility of taking any until the Legion gets into Assault range or has something else deal with the Razorback.  Having said all of that, I still believe that the 40K Tactical Squad is mostly useless except for it's ability to camp Objectives, and armies with other Scoring options are almost always doing better overall without the "tax" required to actually try to win some games based on the Missions themselves.  One reason I bring Scouts in my Crimson Fist lists, frankly they are simply cheaper scoring bodies that I can try to flank or otherwise hide to keep alive.  3+ armor is simply NOT enough these days to try and stay alive when other armies like the Eldar and Tau have so many weapons on their basic, common units that simply ignore your Armor and in a lot of cases any potential Cover saves you might have had....

And so, back to Rock-Paper-Scissors I guess...  Marines (40K) deal well enough with the 4 Tau Riptide if they build specifically for it, as do the Eldar with the same caveat.  Tau/Eldar are pretty much dominating the competitive scene otherwise...  And ironically, the 30K Heresy era things seem fairly well balanced against all of the above...  For the moment, with the breakneck speed of releases in 6th Edition these days, who knows what will happen when the Tyranids hit the field with a new book or the IG, or...  :-)  Whatever comes next frankly...

30K and 40K so far...

So...  Got in a fair number of 30k games now, and I have to say it is a refreshing change.  Balanced, fun and so far nothing too over the top.  Well, there are a few things that are close :-) ....  Spartan decked out is close, but mid 300 point range?  Neat, but almost never gets back its points on its own....  Transporting a giant unit of whatever across the table....  THAT wins games. 

Major downside of the 30k stuff I have seen is that everyone is a Marine.  So 3+ saves all over the place.  Things that ignore 3+ armor are rare and expensive.  Weight of fire works, but you have to be aware that sometimes you get 20 wounds on a squad and they do not lose a single model...  FnP all over the place, Artificer Armor for the 2+ in almost every squad for the SGTs...

Biggest down side to 40k locally at least is the broken FOC that the supplements and allies get you.  Playing one Army is actually a DISADVANTAGE now that it is legal to field armies allied with themselves for the extra slots...  4 Riptides or 4 Heldrakes is just silly.  Legal, and playable of course but...  So, I have to have my Centurion Devastator squads ready as the hard counter I think...  For the Riptides or Eldar Wraith Knights...  Just not liking the extreme"rock - paper - scissors" feel the game has devolved into.  I have a good Marine army, just gets kind of boring playing that way.  Fielding my VI Legion Wolves, and having fun...  NOT winning all the time, but I think both players enjoy the game this way.

Not sure how I feel about the "rumored" expansions coming...  Building rules and the ability to field "Lords of War" in 40k games.  So, more expensive books to a) fix rules that they failed to do right in the base game and b) giant, expensive kits that were never intended for this scale of the game...  If the fortification rules are free downloads publicly available that is one thing, but given who we are talking about?  Not holding my breath.  Right now, the Skyshield if played as written is stupidly broken, making the Eldar a no brainer to win most tournaments...  So, it is killing the game from a competitive standpoint...  And that in turn seems to be driving sales lower and attendance at our local store...  I am having a harder time getting the motivation to play in a tournament, or even keep playing 40k frankly.  REALLY like the Forge World models, just wish the Gopher carried them :-)   Picked up a few Cataphractii Terminator suits, amazing models.  Spartan is on the list for eventually pick up, even more if the bigger things hit the table in general.  Slowly getting more, but...  Just hoping the game itself continues...

2000 point Heresy game this week...

Bringing my VI Legion (Wolves) out to play again against Word Bearers I think...  I am fielding the following:

2000 Legion 12000 Pts  -   ~ Horus Heresy (THH1) Army

1 Legion Praetor (HQ) @ 155 Pts
     Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Master of the Legion; #Artificer
     Armour; #Frag Grenades; #Krak Grenades; Refractor Field; Rite of War:
     Pride of the Legion; Archaeotech Pistol; Paragon Blade; Warlord

1 Forge Lord (Legion Centurion) (HQ) @ 130 Pts
     Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Consul; Battlesmith; #Frag
     Grenades; #Krak Grenades; #Artificer Armour; Rad Grenades; Refractor
     Field; Bolt Pistol (x1); Charnabal Sabre; Servo-arm; Graviton Gun

19 Legion Breacher Siege Squad (Troops) @ 395 Pts
     Legiones Astartes; Hardened Armour; #Boarding Shield; Power Armour; Bolt
     Pistol (x19); Bolter (x15); Flamer (x2); Graviton Gun (x2); Frag Grenades;
     Krak Grenades

     1 Legion Sergeant @ [155] Pts
          (character); #Boarding Shield; Artificer Armour; Bolter; Power Weapon
          (x1)

9 Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (Troops) @ 275 Pts
     Legiones Astartes; Veteran Tactics; Power Armour; Chainsword (x8); Bolt
     Pistol (x9); Bolter (x7); Heavy Bolter w/Suspensor Web (x1); Missile
     Launcher w/Susp. Web (x1); Power Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

     1 Legion Veteran Sergeant @ [85] Pts
          (character); Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon (x1); Bolter

1 Legion Apothecary (Elites) @ 210 Pts
     (character); Legiones Astartes; #Narthecium; Augury Scanner; Artificer
     Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Sword; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

     1 Legion Apothecary #1 @ [70] Pts
          (character); Legiones Astartes; #Narthecium; Augury Scanner;
          Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Sword; Frag Grenades; Krak
          Grenades

     1 Legion Apothecary #2 @ [70] Pts
          (character); Legiones Astartes; #Narthecium; Augury Scanner;
          Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Sword; Frag Grenades; Krak
          Grenades

4 Legion Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 460 Pts
     Legiones Astartes; Implacable Advance; Prototype Weaponry; #Cataphractii
     TDA; Power Weapon (x4); Combi-Bolter (x3); Reaper Autocannon (x1)

     1 Legion Terminator Sergeant @ [55] Pts
          #Cataphractii TDA; Combi-Bolter; Power Weapon (x1)

     1 Legion Phobos @ [270] Pts
          Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 10; Access Points: 3; Assault Vehicle;
          #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; #Machine Spirit; Armoured Ceremite;
          TL Lascannon Sponsons (x2)

9 Legion Tactical Support Squad (Troops) @ 235 Pts
     Legiones Astartes; Support Squad; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol (x9); Volkite
     Caliver; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

     1 Legion Sergeant @ [55] Pts
          (character); Artificer Armour; Augury Scanner; Bolt Pistol;
          Chainsword

1 Legion Artillery Tank Squadron (Legion Basilisk) (Heavy Support) @ 140 Pts
     Vehicle (Tank); #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; Earthshaker Cannon; Hull
     Heavy Bolter

Models in Army: 52


Total Army Cost: 2000

So, NOT bringing my Spartan of Doom...  That seems like a simple enough choice, and I know damn good and well that it works.  Let's see what the lads can do like this.  The Siege Squad joined by the Tech and Praetor seems like a pretty tough nut to crack, especially if I plant them in some sort of cover.  Have to admit the Conversion Beam on the Tech is VERY tempting in this setup, and could be easy enough to get if I feel it will work...  Seems one of the good ways to put down a Str 10 AP 1 blast to help deal with the Land Raiders being immune to Melta, or the big MCs...

The Basilisk is there to root out things hiding, and with it being a Str 9 AP 3 large blast Ord weapon...  Well, barring area terrain, I am hoping to see some large squads of Infantry in the open, or bomb them out of cover...  In a pinch I think it also has a decent chance against most Vehicles, even Land Raiders I guess...  Thinking it will be able to drop the template on the folks piling out of a Rhino the Volkites destroy...  You know, if things go the way I'd like them to...  We'll see I guess.  Not 100% sure it will be worth the 140 points for a BS 4 Basilisk, but...

Vets will either be Snipers of Flankers, depending on the setup...  Both Heavy Weapons have suspensors allowing them to fire on the move, and Sniper for the Unit is just brutal...

So, 4 "Troops" choices, 1 Heavy and 2 HQ elements...  A lot of Infantry, hoping that this does not bite me in the ass...  But a LOT of FnP for the lads...  We'll see if that works at all.  Since I know I will not face a Heldrake, I am less concerned...  Thinking that a Bastion and/or Mortis DN will become a standard piece of equipment for me going forward...

VI Legion, Wolves

So, going back to the old Wolves, or more correctly at this point the VI Legion.  I HAVE a bunch of stuff painted up in what was the original paint scheme for the Wolves, some of that fits in quite well with the current Forgeworld Heresy era stuff…  I am liking how the Cataphractii are coming together and the “new” color scheme is looking pretty good so far.  Running a lot of just basic stuff at this point, the VI’s specific rules won’t be out for quite some time.  Still there is a LOT of “basic” stuff to use.

For instance, Veteran Squads have a number of rules they choose at the start of each game:

Fearless, Sniper, Furious Charge, Outflank, Tank Hunter

Choosing one, guessing I’ll be using Sniper or Outflank…  Not enough in the range of AT weapons to make the Bolters really effective.  Sniper gives me the ability to Wound on at worst a 4+ regardless of Toughness, Precision Shots and Rending on all shooting attacks…  Not seeing a downside, especially as this is likely my answer to the big MC type things out there.  Flank of course is just a pretty good thing all around for a bunch of the Lads…  As they’ll likely be Troops in my lists, being able to put them in my enemy’s back field seems like a good thing.

So, like I said the Cataphractii are coming along...

Happy how the test model is coming along...  5 assembled so far, ready for the next 5...  More Troops for the 6th...

Legion review and comparing it to 40K...

Well, played against a 40K Marine force with my Armored Spearhead last evening...  Wound up losing, but it was a fairly close fight.  Made my one critical error when facing a Chapter Master...  Orbital Strike against a tightly packed Breacher Squad meant I lost my Tech and 9 of the line troopers...  Forgot about that, and it cost me dearly.  That Squad SHOULD have cleared out the center.  They DID take down the Terminators, but they should have done so much more against what amounts to just a bunch of Power Armored bodies in Bolter range.  So, the 3 Squad force at 1850 was unsuccessful in an Objective based game.  DID lose one Land Raider and the Terminators it was transporting.  Ironically, the last Cataphract died in the explosion from a Rhino he tore up with his Chain Fist...

Kind of brings up the point of irritation for me...  NOT with his specific army at all.  James' force was a fairly "friendly" force based around Ultramarines using mostly Tactical and Devastator Squads with Salamander Allies.  So, essentially, lots of 3+ save bodies.  Dies horribly to Heldrake spam, but not really an issue locally at least.  More the broader picture.  The fact that Allies allow you to take a modified and likely superior FOC.  And being able to ally with yourself to gain the extra slots just seems inherently unbalanced.  Yes, everyone CAN take Allies.  Just annoying that I feel penalized by taking a basic, traditional force.  This modified FOC I think is a major unbalancing factor in the Tournament scene.  Seeing a lot of the armies bringing 3-4 of the big MC things to win.  Given the limited environment and time constraints, those armies will do well if their Troops are fairly resilient or say, their Transports are.    Some of the armies that the big MC types would I think have a harder time taking down are things like the massed Infantry/Hordes...  Not viable to play those armies in a timed event though.

I don't know.  Looking ahead I have to admit to thinking that I won't bother trying to get a team together to go to Adepticon.  A lot will depend on the FAQ that the TOs there provide.  But right now, the Eldar Wave Serpents spam on the Skyshield seems to be something nigh unbeatable.  Put enough up there and you are unassailable in Assault, have a 3+ cover save that goes to 2+ with the Holo Fields and against the few things that may remove the Cover save?  Oh, yeah a 4++...  Still looking at the RAW, and the rules for no cover save weapons specify "wounds", so strictly speaking it does NOT apply to Vehicles...

So, got the Cataphracts assembled and starting to test out a paint scheme.  Going with the Pre-Heresy Wolves...  Will have to post a pic when I remember to take my phone downstairs...  Have to say I like the way they are coming together...

Next Week's Legion list

So, looking at what I've learned from last week...  Here's what I intend to field next week:

1850 Pts - ~ Horus Heresy (THH1) Army                                       1850 Legion 2

Unit Name                       ##  WS   BS   St   To   Wo   In    At   Ld  Save     Cost

Legion Praetor (HQ)             1    6    5   4/5   4    3    5    4    10 2+/5++     135
                               Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Master
                               of the Legion; #Artificer Armour; #Frag Grenades;
                               #Krak Grenades; Refractor Field; Rite of War:
                               Armoured Spearhead; Bolt Pistol (x1); Paragon
                               Blade; Warlord

Forge Lord (Legion Centurion)   1    5    5   4/8   4    2   5/1  3/4   9    2+       105
                               Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Consul;
                               Battlesmith; #Frag Grenades; #Krak Grenades;
                               #Artificer Armour; Rad Grenades; Bolt Pistol
                               (x1); Charnabal Sabre; Servo-arm

Legion Breacher Siege Squad (T  19   4    4    4    4    1    4    1    8  3+/6++     395
                               Legiones Astartes; Hardened Armour; #Boarding
                               Shield; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol (x19); Bolter
                               (x15); Flamer (x3); Graviton Gun (x1); Frag
                               Grenades; Krak Grenades
  Legion Sergeant               1    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    9  2+/6++   [160]
                               (character); #Boarding Shield; Artificer Armour;
                               Bolter; Lightning Claw

Legion Tactical Squad (Troops)  9    4    4    4    4    1    4   1/2   8    3+       390
                               Legiones Astartes; Fury of the Legion; Power
                               Armour; Chainsword; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter
                               (x9); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
  Legion Tactical Sergeant      1    4    4    4    4    1    4   2/3   9    2+      [82]
                               (character); Artificer Armour; Chainsword; Power
                               Weapon (x1); Bolt Pistol
  Legion Proteus                1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 4          [200]
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 10; Access Points: 2;
                               #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; #Machine Spirit;
                               TL Lascannon Sponsons (x2)

Legion Apothecary (Elites)      1    4    4    4    4    1    4   1/2   8    2+        70
                               (character); Legiones Astartes; #Narthecium;
                               Augury Scanner; Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol;
                               Power Sword; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Legion Spartan Assault Tank (H  1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 5            315
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 25; Access Points: 3;
                               Assault Vehicle; #Machine Spirit; #Extra Armour;
                               #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; Armoured
                               Ceremite; TL Heavy Bolters; Quad Lascannon
                               Sponsons (x2)

Legion Terminator Squad (Elite  4    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    8  2+/4++     440
                               Legiones Astartes; Implacable Advance; Prototype
                               Weaponry; #Cataphractii TDA; Power Weapon (x4);
                               Combi-Bolter (x3); Reaper Autocannon (x1)
  Legion Terminator Sergeant    1    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    9  2+/4++    [55]
                               #Cataphractii TDA; Combi-Bolter; Power Weapon
                               (x1)
  Legion Phobos                 1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 4          [250]
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 10; Access Points: 3;
                               Assault Vehicle; #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers;
                               #Machine Spirit; TL Lascannon Sponsons (x2)

  Models in Army: 41
 

So, a much smaller force...  One ancient Land Raider for the Tac Squad to go forth and camp.  Did find out that the Proteus Class LR lacks the Assault Vehicle rule, so the lads woll not get out and charge into Assault...  But, not really the plan for them.  The whole army is Scoring, at least all 3 Squads...  And The big Siege Breacher Squad with FnP, Flamers, Defensive Grenades, Invulnerable Saves, Rad Grenades and 2 decent HtH monsters hidden in there?  Should be a PITA to remove from the field once they get out of the Spartan.

So, nothing subtle, just the Spartan flanked by the other 2 Land Raiders rolling up the field.  8 TL Las Cannon shots, each Vehicle with Machine Spirit so the shots can be spread out a bit...  Less concerned about Fliers or big MCs...  Think they will have a hard time removing the Spartan with the Tech riding in it repairing as needed...

First game in with Legion vs Chaos @ 1850

So, got in a game against a Chaos force with m generic Legion army.  I fielded:

Vigilator
Siege Breaker
3 Apothocaries (Artificer, PW)
Breacher Squad (20, 3 Grav 1 flamer)
Tactical Squad (20)
Tactical Support (10, Volkite Calviers)
Mortis DN
Thudd Gun
Spartan (dozer, Ceremite)

Joe brought a Chaos/Black Legion force based on a Rhino Rush strategy:
Chaos Lord (jump pack, Axe of rage, burning blade?, Khorne mark)
Raptors (10, 2 melta, few other upgrades)
3 Rhinos with a Squad each (Melta/Flamer in each Squad, PF/PW champ)
Hel Drake
Chaos Chaplain equivalent (BL)
Chosen Squad (loads of upgrades, in Rhino)

He went first, loaded up his Left flank with 3 Rhinos full and the Jump Squad, leaving a single Rhino on the Right for himself.  I set up in a few ruins, one had the Quad Mortar one the Support Squad and one the Tac Squad from my Left to Center.  I left my Right empty, keeping the Spartan in Reserve with the Breacher Squad in as bait for the Objective there.  Siege Breaker with the Support Squad (my Warlord) and the Vigilator with the Tac Squad to give them better cover and use his Sniper abilities.  This I think is where I made my major mistake.  Had I simply fielded the Spartan ON the Objective and dared them to come and get me I would have been in a far better position late game.  As it was, nothing game breaking, we ended up with a draw as we both killed a lot of the other side and had units locked in Assault when time expired...  I got First Blood from a Rhino kill, he got Line Breaker by being in my DZ for the bulk of the game :-)...  We both found that the big 20 man Squads with FnP and 2-3 2+ Armor guys in them were annoyingly difficult to kill off.  I did not actually lose any of my Squads entirely by the game end, but I also failed to kill off enough of his to keep an Objective clear....

So, what I learned:

1. Big Squads are good, especially the Breacher Squad.  The Blast/Template re-rolls and FnP meant that bunching up coming out of the Spartan wasn't a big deal.  Also, ALL of them having a 5++ and FnP in Assault was huge.  This will I think become a standard setup piece for my lists.  Some of the lads are inbound now, guessing I'll be sculpting/casting shields to mod more of my ancient earlier MK armors to be a full Squad...
2. While it was GREAT having Apothecaries in each Squad, I need to tool out the SGT and likely have a more HtH focused IC in each big Squad to actually be a credible threat and actually keep my lads alive when they get hit.
3. Tac Support Squad with the Volkite thing...  It was "eh"...  A minor threat to the Rhinos.  But really?  I think Flamers in a Rhino will be more the norm.  Keep it in Reserve maybe and roll on to flambe a Unit that is threatening my backfield...  Plasma or Melta are options, but 30/Marine is a lot of points...  Not seeing enough Deep Strikers to say that a unit of all Plasma and Intercept would be worth the points.  Might run the Volkite thing one more time, but 3+, even in cover is just not that great anymore...
4. The Siege Breaker and Vigilator were both pretty "eh" at best.  What I REALLY needed was more HtH power, the Sniper stuff just wasn't worth the points, nor was the Tank Hunter ability really.  SB needs to be in a list with more actual Artillery and more folks with the Comm Units to abuse LoS.  Camo cloak and Specialist Ammo was completely worthless in this case.  
5. I brought a few "let's try this" sort of things...  A single Artillery piece that was no real threat to Marines, the single AA DN, etc...  The DN might stay, but even so, that was 135 points wasted I felt.  The Artillery I have to either commit to bringing a LOT in the form of actual Arty or even 3 Mortars or not at all.  Basilisk is an option, and 2 of them with the LoS abuse possible would be brutal.  So more focused list building needed.
6. ATSKNF...  Not having it SUCKS.  I got way too spoiled playing modern Marine armies for so long that I did not realize how often it might well be REALLY important to have.

So, more focused lists...  That was the big thing I learned.  Thinking the Praetor with the Armored Spearhead will be the next list.  Though I AM looking forward to fielding some Cataphractii Terminators...  Just that they do not normally HAVE the Deep Strike option and so need the 250 point Land Raider bringing the 5 man Squad cost to 440.  The Centurion upgrades I brought were also a "that looks neat" thing, but I think they really brought nothing useful to my list as unfocused as it was.  The Praetor will be different I think.  Fewer bodies, but more focus on doing what I think must be done.

All in all though, I think it was a good, fun game...  Looking forward to seeing what else I can bring to the table...