Marines first game reflections...

So, I set up a 1500 point list to test the new book against Tau...

1500

Pedro Kantor     185

Sternguard (10, Combi weapons, drop pod)  365

Centurion Devastators (Missile Launchers, Grav, Omni Scope) 290

Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, 5 Shotguns, Heavy Bolter)  143
  Land Speeder Storm (Heave Flamer) 45

Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, 5 Shotguns, missile launcher)  143
  Land Speeder Storm (Melta) 55


Honor Guard for Pedro, in a Rhino

Thundrefire Cannon

Hunter AA tank

And...  I think that was about it...  Mission was kill points, and I played silly wanting to try out the new toys.  Barely scraped out a win, but mostly due to so many easy to snag kill points on my side...  5 man Scout squads are not all that hard to deal with, and Speeders are "fragile"...  But the Army performed quite well.

Stars:

1. Thunderfire Cannon...  It didn't kill EVERYTHING, but 4 Barrage templates/turn put a MAJOR hurt on the Tau.  It's kill tally included the last wound on a Riptide, a Piranha, 18/20 Kroot in a single salvo, and various assorted other Tau... The no cover save round might well be obsolete as the cover is measured from the center of the blast for barrage...  I think I fired the Str 6 AP 5 round all day and there was never cover to worry about...  Well, Speeders got their save :-)...
2. Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment... Turn one, no night fighting, Pedro riding in the Rhino...  Clear LOS to the Enemy Command group chock full of Crisis Suits, Drones, etc...  Hit dead on for the Str 10 AP 1 "Ouch"...  Dropped the big squad down to a handful of survivors.  Also the AP 4 Storm Bolter he has?  REALLY nice in a field of 4+ save bodies...
3. Centurion Devastators...  Fear factor alone...  I set them up in reinforced ruins with the Thunderfire.  Held them back too long, but there was NOTHING set up within 24 of them, so I had a big bubble of "This zone is protected".  When they got to shoot, they were deadly beyond words.  Hitting Fire Warriors in the open?  Evaporate that squad...  Tank Hunter for free?  Thank you, Missiles away... Split fire too?  Thanks!   I should have been FAR more aggressive with them and just marched them up the field with Pedro and company...  Well, I did, but I should have started with that in mind and on turn one.  By the end of the game, they were in the enemy DZ killing the few remaining things in range...

Other than that...  Well, I need to paint up some more of the old school lads as "Honour Guard" for the Chapter Master.  The Scouts did well enough I think.  I was generally happy with their results, though I played them badly in some ways...  Might use Bolters for the Bolter Drill and have to remember that Bolt Pistols are I think covered...  Storm Bolters?  Damn, have to look that up later...  Guessing that a Squad or two of Tac Marines will be needed, and with the cheapness of Assault Marines and the fact that I happen to have "a few" on a shelf primed and ready for paint...  Been there for a LONG time, 3 editions I think, but who knows they might even work :-)...

Note, the Hunter AA tank did fairly well...  Ended up getting Melta'd before the end of the game, but being able to put a Str 7 AP2, Armorbane missile on target is nice.  Skimmers everywhere with Eldar, Tau and Necrons being the "power armies" at the moment.  So, for 70 points?  Worth it.  Lack of a way to remove annoying cover saves, lack of Interceptor and useless against non flier/skimmer are all very real drawbacks, but it's a start for the lads.  I think the days of Heldrakes roaming the skies with impunity are over.  At least I feel like I have something that CAN threaten the thing...

'course, just my impressions and opinions as always, YMMV...

New Marine book, first impressions...

So, got the book at the Armored Gopher...  Looking quite good.  Did get to see a few games played with them in our wee tournament...  First impressions:

The Hunter (AAA Rhino Variant)...  70 points, and given the current state of the game with all kinds of Fliers and Skimmers everywhere, Str 7 and Armor Bane starts looking good.  Eldar and Tau skimmers being everywhere and of course Necron fliers/skimmers being what they are...  But that leads to...

Heavy Support slots are going to be precious.  There are just 3 slots and with the Centurion Devastators, AAA tanks, Storm Ravens and Thunderfire Cannon all in this slot...

Thunderfire changed a bit, gained Barrage, but looks like the Techmarine manning it is not a Techmarine, but rather a "Techmarine Gunner"...  And he does not get the bolster defenses, IC rules, etc...  But still, 100 points seems a bargain for the Barrage 4 weapon of doom...

So, on to Troops...  This I think is going to be a hard one for me as a Crimson Fists player, my Sternguard will be Scoring, and I am looking at running Scouts.  The Combat Squad rules have changed a bit, but nothing too bad.  For 100 points I can get 5 Scouts AND their Dedicated Transport in the Land Speeder Storm...  Thinking that I will be fielding some of the lads with Bolters given that the IF Chapter Tactics are re-rolling 1's on the Bolter shots, and with the open topped Transport I should be able get a fair number of shots off...  Snipers are going to be "eh" I think still...

Will have to throw something together for Monday...

1850 Marines, last shot before the new codex :-) Updated

So, Crimson Fists for a last shot before the new book hits...  Looking at the rumors, my stuff won't change much, just getting some bonuses really.  Might bring a Tactical squad with the Imperial Fist's "Bolter Drill" being a permanent thing...  Dunno :-)  Troops have always bee the weak point for the more recent Marine armies I feel, so the Scouts might well get bumped to try something different.  Have to say I like the IDEA of the Centurions, but $78 for the box of 3 figures?  A bit rich for my blood at the moment I think. $26 for a non character Terminator figure?  I think it will be horribly effective in my Crimson Fists force gaining Tank Hunter..  Oh, only really considering the "Devastator" version.  Without a FAQ, Slow and Purposeful means the Heavy Flamers are less useful on the HtH version combined with the lack of an invulnerable save means I have to ask "why?".  And honestly I do not have issues dealing with things in HtH, so really just shoot things more...

So, getting in a game this week...  Using the current Codex, Crimson Fists:

Pedro Cantor 175
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Null Zone, Vortex) 125
Sternguard (2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Combi Melta, 3 Combi Plasma, SGT with LC, Combi Melta)
  Drop Pod (Locaor Beacon)   370
Sternguard (2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Combi Melta, 3 Combi Plasma, SGT with LC, Combi Melta)
  Drop Pod (Locaor Beacon)   370
Scout Squad (8 Snipers, Cloaks, ML, SGT w/Sniper)   180
Scout Squad (8 Snipers, Cloaks, HB, SGT w/Sniper)   180
Thunderfire Cannon  100
Thunderfire Cannon  100
Vanguard Vets (5, Jump Packs, Power Weapons, PF)  250

So, Scouts deploy with the Cannons on the field...  Pedro rides in with one and the Librarian with another Pod.  Vanguard comes in on a Locator Beacon to assault out of reserve for one last time...  Fast, and like my Fleshtearers list, win big or die quick...

Wound up dropping a few things to buy Melta Bombs on the Sternguard, figured I'd face a tank line...  Didn't, but still worked out.  Wound up regretting the lack of AAA or a flier of my own as the 2 Heldrakes simply ran the field and killed off a LOT of my stuff.  Game ended up with one Thunderfire on my side and the 2 Heldrakes on his...  Time expired and with my First Blood, I got the minor "I won?"...  Good game as always against Joe...

Marines in a few weeks?

On to Marines?  Looking like Marines come out next.  Interesting, I am a bit surprised they were not one of the first ones, but still…  I DO have a Crimson Fists army and another huge mess of generic ancient Marines, so I’ll be getting the book at least.

Going over the rumors and leaks, I have to admit I am a bit concerned that this might either be broken good or complete crap like the Dark Angels. 

The rumors I am liking:

Scouts getting the Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated Transport:  Why did this take so long?  IIRC, the model was out before the 5^th edition codex.  Personally I never bought the kit because it was “eh” at best and ate up a second slot…  Also, might or might not be able to do cool things like flank and hit the table assaulting, etc…  So, if I can use the open top skimmer as a dedicated transport for the Shotgun Scouts I have in my CF army if I convert one of the many Speeder models…  So, neat, but certainly I think NOT over powered in any way shape or form.

AA Rhino:  Sounding more and more like an actual dedicated AAA vehicle.  FINALLY?  Not that the needing to field your own fliers was a problem or anything…  OK, it was a VERY sore point for me at least…  But in any case, looking like the Marines will have some decent AAA threats.  Have to admit I am REALLY kind of hoping that all of the other flavors of Marine will get this kit as well right out of the box.  My Wolves and Fleshtearers would be well served by having access to this tank…  Not something I am counting on though given GW…

On the fence about:

Grav Weapons:  Have to wait and see I think.  If the info is correct and they wound based on the target’s armor save and are AP 2, then I think they might be overly powerful.  As long as they are rareish like Melta weapons, then I am not really seeing any real problem…  OTOH, if they are common, cheap and better than Melta?  Well…

Things I am NOT looking forward to:

Vanguard Vets:  Word is they lose their ability to Assault from Deep Strike.  If this is true, then why would anyone ever take this unit?  They become just another 3+ armor save Assault Squad.  Extra Attacks I guess and I COULD spend a crapton of points/money and go TH/SS for some reason…  Still a lot of EXPENSIVE 3+ save bodies that still cannot get into Assault easily enough.  Thinking about facing Tau, I drop in, get hit by Interceptors, some of which are large blast Marine Killing weapons…  Then I sit around a turn while the Tau shoot at me with full BS or more likely), THEN I get to take the few survivors (if any) and try to assault into the supporting overwatch fire of doom, which might be at higher BS if there are enough markerlights…  Really?  So, this tells me that this will not ever actually happen on a gaming table…  I guess my BA based Fleshtearers will still do this for now assuming they do not FAQ them out of existence.

Guess that leads me to my next thing I am either on the fence about of not looking forward to:  Is this Vanilla only, or will a lot of the changes be propagated through all of the “Marine” Codices?  Right now, my Wolves are at best and Ally force, incapable I believe of taking on a top tier list on their own.  The DA are just bad all around lacking serious cover from the Heldrakes and now Tau combos.  The BA are an assault or fast Rhino Hull based army, neither of which will work overly well in the modern era.  Not saying that it auto loses, just that the Xenos’ ability to simply kill Marines in 3+ (and even 2+) armor has passed the old standard of 4’s across the board for characteristics and 3+ armor being enough to win games…  The Bolter itself is certainly showing its age as well.  Range, Str and AP are all average…  To put it in modern perspective, the lack of say, Rending like the Eldar get, the Necron’s 6’s glance Vehicles or the Tau’s greater range, Str and extra rules…  Well, why bother really?  I wind up with an inferior weapon on an expensive trooper who is now easily taken down by the things further up the power spiral…  I guess the Marines will themselves be going down in cost, so at least they won’t be so expensive on their own…  Just a wait and see what, if anything else changes and whether the “3+ Armor Mafia” can get back to competing on the tabletop…

Elites, DLC and Marines coming out next Month

Mkay, I apparently read too many other blogs…  Goatboy had a pretty decent write-up about how “Elite” as a slot in the 6^th edition Codices has become something less than “Elite” here http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/08/goatboys-monday-40k-elites-are-not-so.html.  I’d have to agree for the most part.  But the same can be said of Fast and Heavy Support really…  While HS has some of the “BFG” stuff, and both HS and FA CAN become scoring in certain missions, frankly the current edition punishes you for bringing anything other than “Troops” or things that can be made Scoring more often than not.  So, the books with the best “Troops” are the most successful armies.  Have to admit, this is one of my major concerns with the upcoming Marine book.

Rumor has the Grav weapons coming in with AP of 2.  So, the new Melta perhaps?  Just remembering 5^th edition where there were IG Vet Squads, whatever else, all armed with as many Melta weapons as they could because there were a lot of Vehicles and there frankly was no real disadvantage to the use of Melta.  It killed “Whatever” you were shooting at.  In some cases not as efficiently as Plasma, but it wouldn't kill YOU for shooting the weapon, so…  Oh, and it was/is cheaper. Hoping the Grav weapons are not too over the top silly, but good to see ancient things hitting the field again...  Now, hoping the AA stuff is actually good enough to keep the Heldrakes at bay for a bit...

In any case, the current Tactical Squad in the Marine books is pretty worthless in my opinion.  Not very mobile, the bolter isn't that powerful a weapon these days, and the 3+ armor just isn’t what it was years ago.  Scouts with the proliferation of “no cover saves” in recent books have taken yet another hit and are now back to novelty status from a solid, cheap Troop option.  And…?  With the Vanilla Codex, a bike CPT would allow you to use Bike Squads as Troops I guess.  Great, until you hit your first Heldrake or Tau gunline.  Then, just more expensive casualties.  Blood Angels get Assault Squads as Troops, as well as Death Company (and DC DNs).  Assault troops are “eh” these days overall.  I do FAR better with them than my Tac Marines in my Fleshtearer force as the Jump Packs at least make the lads mobile enough to try to run a flank or use a big piece of terrain to hide in and assault out of…  So, against all but the most powerful armies like the Necron air force, Chaos allies, Tau Gunlines and now Eldar forces they can at least be a threat that must be dealt with…  The Death Company are really only technically Troops as they can NEVER hold anything, so they are just shock troops for me.  Kill as much as they can and hope I have the only force still standing at the end.  Not being able to assault out of Reserve for the most part means that Scouts and Deep Strikers by and large are no nearly so good as they were.  Oh, and there are Interceptors now that can just kill you as you hit the field.  So, even less useful given I can only Reserve 50% or so of the force in this edition.  Target saturation is hard when you only have a few Deep Strikers…

So, back on topic J..  I am interested to see what, if anything else that GW does for the old Tactical Marines.  It does not appear as if they will themselves be getting anything in the lines of new Transports or armor, so…  Well, I am assuming a major points reduction at least, but really what else?  Another Melta Gun is neat and all, but what else can they do?  Just having the required bodies to hold objectives is not enough I think.  They probably wouldn't get the Sternguard ammo types, and that might well be overly powerful…  Remembering the old CCW/Pistol/Rifle weapon load out would be nice, but really nothing new or all that useful.  Seeing the Tau get the ability to provide cover fire for their own people as they get charged and this being applied in the Apocalypse Marine formation?  Might be something that at least some of the new Tactical Marines might get something to that effect…   But what else really?  Guess this is why I’m not a game developer…

Other thing, the Supplemental Codices…  Are they really supplemental or are they something different?  http://blog.spikeybits.com/2013/08/editorial-digital-releases-are-they.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SpikeyBits+%28Spikey+Bits%29

Pretty darn expensive for the 2 pages of rules, and of course there is the whole bypassing the FLGS thing…  Since I actually PLAY at the game store, I’d much prefer to make my purchases there.  ‘course, with electronic content, this is not an option.  For the most part I am not really seeing this as a major problem…  So far they’re “neat” options, but nothing game breaking or really overly powerful that will be dominating the competitive scene.  I know GW does not support this and they claim to not to care or write their rules with this in mind, but this is how a LOT of the game is played here in the States…  The fact that the rules are “exclusive” and not generally available to everyone is a major concern for me as a player in a tournament, and honestly I’m not sure I’d be allowing them as the Tournament Organizer…  I have a small one coming up at the Gopher next month, and due to the size, not a major issue for me J…  But of course by then at least one more will be released, and if this is the one that breaks it?  I guess my major objection to this is the clear “cash grab” as they release the DLC a bit at a time for “premium” prices.  I am concerned that the cost will continue to shoot up while they release more and more things that break the game further, requiring the competitive players to keep buying direct from GW…  Guess we’ll see.

Eldar continued and the general 40K scene locally

After a number of games involving the Eldar, the one glaringly obvious conclusion I have come to is that the Wave Serpent is vastly overpowered.  I’m not brining what I feel is a “Let’s Spam Them” level of the things, but even the 4 that I was fielding were more than enough.  Averaging 9 wounds/WS/turn.  With 3 of them starting on the field for me, and not particularly caring about cover saves…  Oh, and they can move 12” and fire both of their main weapons?  Mine are coming in at 135 points with the Holo Field.  The Shuriken Cannon would be awesome, but just can’t quite justify the extra 10 points/Serpent…  Yet.  It is a major consideration, and frankly with more Marine rumors floating about?  Not sure this isn’t going to get FAQ’d out of existence.  I can count on one hand the number of times I have NOT fired the Shield as an offensive weapon, and almost all of these were Turn 1 when I either had no targets or the other side went first and I was unable to have fired J…  Hoping to survive the Meltas dropping in on me…

Last night’s game I used the Farseer for the first time.  Doom with the sheer number of shots?  And with Sniper, Shuriken and “d” class weapons all getting huge bonuses on the 6’s to wound?  Have to say, the life span of the big MC’s or Terminators will be very limited I think near one of these lads.  Picked my target, Doomed and Guided…  Did use the Eldritch Storm twice as well, and rolled snake eyes for the wounding myself…  NOT a bad power I have to say.  Fleshbane and a large blast?  2 power points though…  Still, bunched up stuff wounding on 2+?  Thinking that a Farseer/Spiritseer combo will allow me to have the best of both worlds.

Troops?  The 5 man Dire Avenger (DA) squads are adequate if what you are doing is getting the 135 point uber-transport and a few bodies to do the late game objective grabs.  The Wraithguard are awesome, and with the Spiritseer making them Troops and granting a few other bonuses they have been my “go to” troop option.  The DA with their 18” ranged rending (sort of) weapon, move-shoot-move option and not bad stats overall are pretty darn good.  I’ve been less happy with the Guardians with their limited range and large minimum size.  Not bad per se, but unless you are running a 20 man squad I’m having a hard time seeing them being as good as or better than the DA.  The Heavy Weapon upgrades are nice (except the Scatter Laser), but let’s be honest, I am NOT lacking on the number of heavy weapon shots in my army.  Bright Lances might be the exception, but haven’t seen the massed AV 14 stuff in a while…

Picking up some terrain from one of the other games locally…  The set includes 2 Bastions and 3 Aegis gun lines with the various guns.  One Bastion I will be making standard for my Imperial forces.  Seeing the usefulness of these recently playing with limited terrain, but having HtH Wraiths say waiting in the building?  Or just a squad of Praetorians to man the extra Heavy Bolters?  The AAA option will I think be needed as well, though more for the Interceptor option than the Skyfire recently…  Not seeing as many Aircraft, not entirely sure why, I think they are still on the really powerful end of things…  Tau are hitting the field in bulk these days, a bit surprised I’m one of the very few Eldar players..  But back on topic, the second Bastion?  Make it more Eldar maybe?  Dunno…  Forgot to check if these were things I could link together in Apocalypse games for one of the formations…  So, if anyone local is looking to pick up a Bastion or a few Aegis lines cheap, LMK…

Kind of in “wait and see” mode really with most of the local gaming group…  The group is still large and growing, and with the Students coming back now might even get larger…  But most of the people are cutting back on their purchases.  Dropping down to one or two armies, etc…  As more things get released in the 6^th edition, I think the game itself is getting a bit more balanced overall, but there are a few things that really stand out about almost every new Codex.  Chaos Marines got the Heldrake, Tau got the load of “we break a lot of the game’s rules” stuff, the Eldar have their Wave Serpent, etc…  Really the only one I can honestly say did NOT get something that stands out as broken/silly is the Dark Angels.  Without the Heldrake a LOT of their stuff like the uber-bikers and the like would be really powerful and fun to play…  Now, they have the ability to make their Bolters Salvo 2/4 with a magic banner.  Neat I guess, if you are looking at causing mass wounds to things that are concerned about bolters.  So, yes, the people fielding the IG blobs, Cultist blobs or Green Tide stopped doing that after a few of us played DA that way…  But overall, the DA book was the one I’d point to and say it was a complete flop.  A few “new” things in the special speeder and unique flier, but the rules for both are such complete crap.  A real shame, the flier at least looked nice and having plasma armed speeders again was something in and of itself…  Have to say, this is my big concern with the Marine Codex coming out next month, or so the rumors go…  FFS, a major company hiding its release schedule until the last moment in this day and age?  Anyway, the Marines have so much potential, and there is SO much that they could draw on to make something new, unique and customizable for almost every 3+ armor save player out there…  Will they?  Hence the “Wait and See” attitude.  Right now a lot of us who play/played the 3+ armor armies are looking at the game and seeing that for the first time that we can remember the “standard” armor is no longer good enough.  Either weight of fire or low AP and/or the loss of cover saves has made it suicide to bring certain units…  Hell, certain armies are just silly to bring these days.  Thinking for me my Fleshtearers are just silly to bring, but my Crimson Fists are right there next to them.  At least the CF have the win big or die quick thing going for them.  A lot of the players, especially the ones out in Danville were REALLY not prepared for a hyper aggressive army played by someone who understood how to use it.  But against someone who has either seen it or understands how to defend against it or at least react to it?  I have one trick/shot to do so much damage as to force the game to end or I die.  This has gotten far worse with the Tau and Eldar now hitting the field.  My Scouts were my “Troops” to sit on objectives, but they are one of the “Why Bother” units these days.  Sternguard are great, but few in number.  Few AA options and the general feeling that the power spiral has passed the Marine based forces by mean there are more than a few players simply finding other games or just no longer showing up regularly…  Of course, the general feeling of being priced out of the game has grown a lot recently, and I know that with reality being what it is I and a lot of the others I talk to have had to seriously cut back on their purchases…  Thus, dropping to fewer armies, not buying new stuff, etc…  Maybe this will reverse, but…

1850 Eldar list, something different for me...

So, the Wraiths work really well...  Will try testing something different...

1850
Farseer (Phoenix Gem)
Dire Avengers (5, Wave Serpent w/ HF and TLSL)
Dire Avengers (5, Wave Serpent w/ HF and TLSL)
Rangers (5)
Striking Scorpions (9, Exarch w/crushing blow and chainsabers, Wave Serpent w/HL, TLSL)
War Walkers (BL/SL on each)
Crimson Hunter (Exarch, Marksman's Eye)
Swooping Hawks (6, Exarch w/ sun rifle and Marksman's eye)
Warp Spiders (5, Exarch with Spinneret Rifle and Marksman's Eye, fast shot)
Dark Reapers (3, Exarch w/Tempest and Fast Shot, Wave Serpent w/ standard loadout)

So, a LOT of Marksman's Eye...  Yes, I know it means I need to roll 5+ to hit, but getting to place the shots can be huge...  The Jaeger seems like it will be nice with the 4 Str 8 AP 2 shots to deal with Paladins nicely and getting to kill off say, an Apothecary on a flyby?  Not bad...

A little short on actual Troops bodies, but DAMN, there will be a lot of shooting....  And accurate shooting at that...  We'll see how it works out I guess...

Saving up my hobby money, guessing the Wraith Knight will be coming here soon...  Anyone looking for a few ancient Magic cards :-)  Probably break apart my old decks with things like Taigas, etc...