Another game and thoughts...

So, played GK last night...  From memory here's what he brought:

Coteaz
6 Henchmen squads:

1. 6 Crusaders, 5 Death Cult Assassins
2. 2 Jokero and 3 Plasma Cannons
3 & 4. Chimera loaded out with Storm Bolters and Special Weapons
5 & 6. Razorbacks loaded out with small squads
2 Rifleman DNs
Dreadknight with sword and flamer
Vindicare Assassin
Storm Raven


I brought my Crimson Fists again
Pedro
Honor Guard in Rhino
Sternguard kitted out and in Drop Pod
2 Scout squads, full, 5 Snipers 1 ML 1 HB, cloaks and Land Speeder Storms
Hunter
Centurion Devastators (4, 3 Grav 1 LC and all missiles and split fire)
Thunderfire Cannon
Extra Techmarine
Storm Talon w/ LC
Rifleman DN

Pretty standard setup, played Big Guns on the diagonal deployment.  I had a strong point with the Thunderfire and Rifleman in  the upper levels and the Rhino w/ Pedro and the Hunter on the ground floor to use the Orbital Strike.  With so many vehicles on his side, his DZ was REALLY crowded.  He went first, but really didn't do much with night fighting and the fact I was hiding DEEP in enhanced cover (3+ for the ruins).  My turn one was pretty good, the Orbital Strike  and the Sternguard dropping in...  Killed one Chimera and immobilized one of the DNs deep in his DZ behind blocking terrain.  The Sternguard took a bunch of wounds off of the Knight who died to a Sniper the next turn...  First blood being VERY important these days and all.  Pretty brutal game overall but going second and making a LOT of cover saves meant things like the DN and Thunderfire lasted a long time.  Never did kill the Vindicare, but I I think I finally offed almost all of his Troops and both DNs.

Storm Raven was killed by the Hunter and Talon.  Turns out Storm Shields make excellent parachutes.  But the big HtH threat was nullified when they crashed and got shot out of existence.

The Thunderfire was brutal.  After the light Infantry got shot out of their transports, it basically killed a squad/turn.  Turn one I think it stripped some hull points in the parking lot...  Should have offed the Vindicare sooner though.

What to test next?  Surprisingly I think the Legion of the Damned...  They Deep Strike in, and they all ignore cover...  Oh, and they can get a Plasma Cannon with their Slow and Purposeful...  Not too expensive, but I think it fits well with my army play style...

Overall, I am really liking the Marine codex...  I think it will be a fun one o play for a long time...

New Marines after a bit of testing...

Trying again....  Silly mobile app ate the last post...

So, now that I have a few games with the new Marine Codex, here is what I am finding... 

Imperial Fists chapter tactics are really quite good.  Rerolling 1's is not bad, and the Tank Hunter for free on the Centurion Devastators is huge.  Scoring Sternguard is good with my old Crimson Fists, though the Drop Pod going down to 10 capacity is painful.  Honor Guard is nice though and Pedro Kantor's once per game Orbital Barrage has proven useful now that I will actually use it... 

Troops are still a bit lacking.  Tac Marines are OK, cheap bodies to hold objectives really.  The overwhelming bulk of the actual work is done by Sternguard, Centurions and vehicles frankly, so I am torn between bringing the bare minimum and hiding them, or trying to flood the field with them....  Scouts are OK too...  So many ignore cover things these days, so the camouflage cloaks are less of a sure thing.  BS 3 makes them "eh" as snipers but at least they are cheap.  Heavy weapons are iffy with them, but I still take them.  Liking the Land Speeder Storm loaded out with 5 lads armed with bolters or shotguns zipping about the enemy backfield.  Heavy Flamer there is surprisingly effective, ignores the BS 3 of the Scout driver.

Heavy Weapons...  Who came up with the costs for these?  Looking over the book, Missile Launchers are 15 or 25 points if you want Flak missiles.  The Assault Cannon is also one of the more expensive upgrades...  In second edition it was the single most powerful weapon in the game, and we are still paying penance for that as Marine players.  Then it ignored almost all armor (-5 save mod, so Terminators could save on 8+), did d12 wounds and could fire up to nine shots...  Now, it is an upgraded Heavy Bolter.  IMO, the ancient Heavy Bolter is really the worst heavy weapon of this (and several previous) edition.  So being slightly better than the worst one is not really a "premium" thing.  Neither the ML or the AC ignore 3+ armor usually... Yes, the AC rends, but counting on 6's is not a successful strategy I think.  And Flak rounds should have been included as a free upgrade to ALL ML, much the same way "flier" was included as a free and massive upgrade for the Necron Croissant and IG fliers...  :-). Just my opinion of course per usual, what would I know I'm just an Engineer...

Centurion Devastator is really powerful.  Finding at least with my Crimson Fists that mixing in one Las Cannon with 2 Grav ones, oh and Missiles for everyone...  Sgt gets the split fire/night fire upgrade, and turn one Tank Hunters surprise a fair number of folks...  :-)   bonus of night vision for the Chapter Master should he be say, attached to them on turn one for his single shot...  The old Planetstorm miniatures I am fielding as the Centurions look pretty good, and seeing the ancient Fantasians hit the field after so long is good...  Oh, and Tank Hunter works for emplaced weapons fired...  Aegis Gun gets really good with rerolls...  Just saying :-)

Finding the old Assault Marines to be OK as well...  As it happens I have "a few" that have been shelved for several editions now...  Time to paint them up as CF I guess.

Thunderfire Cannon is amazing.  I played the Barrage wrong last week, forgot it was the lay the template and scatter from the first hit...  Would have made no difference in general as large flier bases like on the Riptide or big vehicles will just get hit 4 times, regardless if the first shot hits...  And the packed blob of Kroot were doomed either way as I aimed for the center of the blob...  Going forward, it limited my shooting at single or well spaced small units, but in general it makes little difference for the usual targets...

I was surprised that the Stalker is as good as it has been for me.  Lacking Interceptor I assumed it would be poor at best...  Not so much really...  So many skimmers on the field these days, having either 4 twin linked shots at full BS or 8 twin linked shots at BS 2?  The Hunter is also darn good and scares the Heldrakes locally...  Problem is no squadrons and the Heavy Support slot is tight...

Marines first game reflections...

So, I set up a 1500 point list to test the new book against Tau...

1500

Pedro Kantor     185

Sternguard (10, Combi weapons, drop pod)  365

Centurion Devastators (Missile Launchers, Grav, Omni Scope) 290

Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, 5 Shotguns, Heavy Bolter)  143
  Land Speeder Storm (Heave Flamer) 45

Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, 5 Shotguns, missile launcher)  143
  Land Speeder Storm (Melta) 55


Honor Guard for Pedro, in a Rhino

Thundrefire Cannon

Hunter AA tank

And...  I think that was about it...  Mission was kill points, and I played silly wanting to try out the new toys.  Barely scraped out a win, but mostly due to so many easy to snag kill points on my side...  5 man Scout squads are not all that hard to deal with, and Speeders are "fragile"...  But the Army performed quite well.

Stars:

1. Thunderfire Cannon...  It didn't kill EVERYTHING, but 4 Barrage templates/turn put a MAJOR hurt on the Tau.  It's kill tally included the last wound on a Riptide, a Piranha, 18/20 Kroot in a single salvo, and various assorted other Tau... The no cover save round might well be obsolete as the cover is measured from the center of the blast for barrage...  I think I fired the Str 6 AP 5 round all day and there was never cover to worry about...  Well, Speeders got their save :-)...
2. Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment... Turn one, no night fighting, Pedro riding in the Rhino...  Clear LOS to the Enemy Command group chock full of Crisis Suits, Drones, etc...  Hit dead on for the Str 10 AP 1 "Ouch"...  Dropped the big squad down to a handful of survivors.  Also the AP 4 Storm Bolter he has?  REALLY nice in a field of 4+ save bodies...
3. Centurion Devastators...  Fear factor alone...  I set them up in reinforced ruins with the Thunderfire.  Held them back too long, but there was NOTHING set up within 24 of them, so I had a big bubble of "This zone is protected".  When they got to shoot, they were deadly beyond words.  Hitting Fire Warriors in the open?  Evaporate that squad...  Tank Hunter for free?  Thank you, Missiles away... Split fire too?  Thanks!   I should have been FAR more aggressive with them and just marched them up the field with Pedro and company...  Well, I did, but I should have started with that in mind and on turn one.  By the end of the game, they were in the enemy DZ killing the few remaining things in range...

Other than that...  Well, I need to paint up some more of the old school lads as "Honour Guard" for the Chapter Master.  The Scouts did well enough I think.  I was generally happy with their results, though I played them badly in some ways...  Might use Bolters for the Bolter Drill and have to remember that Bolt Pistols are I think covered...  Storm Bolters?  Damn, have to look that up later...  Guessing that a Squad or two of Tac Marines will be needed, and with the cheapness of Assault Marines and the fact that I happen to have "a few" on a shelf primed and ready for paint...  Been there for a LONG time, 3 editions I think, but who knows they might even work :-)...

Note, the Hunter AA tank did fairly well...  Ended up getting Melta'd before the end of the game, but being able to put a Str 7 AP2, Armorbane missile on target is nice.  Skimmers everywhere with Eldar, Tau and Necrons being the "power armies" at the moment.  So, for 70 points?  Worth it.  Lack of a way to remove annoying cover saves, lack of Interceptor and useless against non flier/skimmer are all very real drawbacks, but it's a start for the lads.  I think the days of Heldrakes roaming the skies with impunity are over.  At least I feel like I have something that CAN threaten the thing...

'course, just my impressions and opinions as always, YMMV...

New Marine book, first impressions...

So, got the book at the Armored Gopher...  Looking quite good.  Did get to see a few games played with them in our wee tournament...  First impressions:

The Hunter (AAA Rhino Variant)...  70 points, and given the current state of the game with all kinds of Fliers and Skimmers everywhere, Str 7 and Armor Bane starts looking good.  Eldar and Tau skimmers being everywhere and of course Necron fliers/skimmers being what they are...  But that leads to...

Heavy Support slots are going to be precious.  There are just 3 slots and with the Centurion Devastators, AAA tanks, Storm Ravens and Thunderfire Cannon all in this slot...

Thunderfire changed a bit, gained Barrage, but looks like the Techmarine manning it is not a Techmarine, but rather a "Techmarine Gunner"...  And he does not get the bolster defenses, IC rules, etc...  But still, 100 points seems a bargain for the Barrage 4 weapon of doom...

So, on to Troops...  This I think is going to be a hard one for me as a Crimson Fists player, my Sternguard will be Scoring, and I am looking at running Scouts.  The Combat Squad rules have changed a bit, but nothing too bad.  For 100 points I can get 5 Scouts AND their Dedicated Transport in the Land Speeder Storm...  Thinking that I will be fielding some of the lads with Bolters given that the IF Chapter Tactics are re-rolling 1's on the Bolter shots, and with the open topped Transport I should be able get a fair number of shots off...  Snipers are going to be "eh" I think still...

Will have to throw something together for Monday...

1850 Marines, last shot before the new codex :-) Updated

So, Crimson Fists for a last shot before the new book hits...  Looking at the rumors, my stuff won't change much, just getting some bonuses really.  Might bring a Tactical squad with the Imperial Fist's "Bolter Drill" being a permanent thing...  Dunno :-)  Troops have always bee the weak point for the more recent Marine armies I feel, so the Scouts might well get bumped to try something different.  Have to say I like the IDEA of the Centurions, but $78 for the box of 3 figures?  A bit rich for my blood at the moment I think. $26 for a non character Terminator figure?  I think it will be horribly effective in my Crimson Fists force gaining Tank Hunter..  Oh, only really considering the "Devastator" version.  Without a FAQ, Slow and Purposeful means the Heavy Flamers are less useful on the HtH version combined with the lack of an invulnerable save means I have to ask "why?".  And honestly I do not have issues dealing with things in HtH, so really just shoot things more...

So, getting in a game this week...  Using the current Codex, Crimson Fists:

Pedro Cantor 175
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Null Zone, Vortex) 125
Sternguard (2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Combi Melta, 3 Combi Plasma, SGT with LC, Combi Melta)
  Drop Pod (Locaor Beacon)   370
Sternguard (2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Combi Melta, 3 Combi Plasma, SGT with LC, Combi Melta)
  Drop Pod (Locaor Beacon)   370
Scout Squad (8 Snipers, Cloaks, ML, SGT w/Sniper)   180
Scout Squad (8 Snipers, Cloaks, HB, SGT w/Sniper)   180
Thunderfire Cannon  100
Thunderfire Cannon  100
Vanguard Vets (5, Jump Packs, Power Weapons, PF)  250

So, Scouts deploy with the Cannons on the field...  Pedro rides in with one and the Librarian with another Pod.  Vanguard comes in on a Locator Beacon to assault out of reserve for one last time...  Fast, and like my Fleshtearers list, win big or die quick...

Wound up dropping a few things to buy Melta Bombs on the Sternguard, figured I'd face a tank line...  Didn't, but still worked out.  Wound up regretting the lack of AAA or a flier of my own as the 2 Heldrakes simply ran the field and killed off a LOT of my stuff.  Game ended up with one Thunderfire on my side and the 2 Heldrakes on his...  Time expired and with my First Blood, I got the minor "I won?"...  Good game as always against Joe...

Marines in a few weeks?

On to Marines?  Looking like Marines come out next.  Interesting, I am a bit surprised they were not one of the first ones, but still…  I DO have a Crimson Fists army and another huge mess of generic ancient Marines, so I’ll be getting the book at least.

Going over the rumors and leaks, I have to admit I am a bit concerned that this might either be broken good or complete crap like the Dark Angels. 

The rumors I am liking:

Scouts getting the Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated Transport:  Why did this take so long?  IIRC, the model was out before the 5^th edition codex.  Personally I never bought the kit because it was “eh” at best and ate up a second slot…  Also, might or might not be able to do cool things like flank and hit the table assaulting, etc…  So, if I can use the open top skimmer as a dedicated transport for the Shotgun Scouts I have in my CF army if I convert one of the many Speeder models…  So, neat, but certainly I think NOT over powered in any way shape or form.

AA Rhino:  Sounding more and more like an actual dedicated AAA vehicle.  FINALLY?  Not that the needing to field your own fliers was a problem or anything…  OK, it was a VERY sore point for me at least…  But in any case, looking like the Marines will have some decent AAA threats.  Have to admit I am REALLY kind of hoping that all of the other flavors of Marine will get this kit as well right out of the box.  My Wolves and Fleshtearers would be well served by having access to this tank…  Not something I am counting on though given GW…

On the fence about:

Grav Weapons:  Have to wait and see I think.  If the info is correct and they wound based on the target’s armor save and are AP 2, then I think they might be overly powerful.  As long as they are rareish like Melta weapons, then I am not really seeing any real problem…  OTOH, if they are common, cheap and better than Melta?  Well…

Things I am NOT looking forward to:

Vanguard Vets:  Word is they lose their ability to Assault from Deep Strike.  If this is true, then why would anyone ever take this unit?  They become just another 3+ armor save Assault Squad.  Extra Attacks I guess and I COULD spend a crapton of points/money and go TH/SS for some reason…  Still a lot of EXPENSIVE 3+ save bodies that still cannot get into Assault easily enough.  Thinking about facing Tau, I drop in, get hit by Interceptors, some of which are large blast Marine Killing weapons…  Then I sit around a turn while the Tau shoot at me with full BS or more likely), THEN I get to take the few survivors (if any) and try to assault into the supporting overwatch fire of doom, which might be at higher BS if there are enough markerlights…  Really?  So, this tells me that this will not ever actually happen on a gaming table…  I guess my BA based Fleshtearers will still do this for now assuming they do not FAQ them out of existence.

Guess that leads me to my next thing I am either on the fence about of not looking forward to:  Is this Vanilla only, or will a lot of the changes be propagated through all of the “Marine” Codices?  Right now, my Wolves are at best and Ally force, incapable I believe of taking on a top tier list on their own.  The DA are just bad all around lacking serious cover from the Heldrakes and now Tau combos.  The BA are an assault or fast Rhino Hull based army, neither of which will work overly well in the modern era.  Not saying that it auto loses, just that the Xenos’ ability to simply kill Marines in 3+ (and even 2+) armor has passed the old standard of 4’s across the board for characteristics and 3+ armor being enough to win games…  The Bolter itself is certainly showing its age as well.  Range, Str and AP are all average…  To put it in modern perspective, the lack of say, Rending like the Eldar get, the Necron’s 6’s glance Vehicles or the Tau’s greater range, Str and extra rules…  Well, why bother really?  I wind up with an inferior weapon on an expensive trooper who is now easily taken down by the things further up the power spiral…  I guess the Marines will themselves be going down in cost, so at least they won’t be so expensive on their own…  Just a wait and see what, if anything else changes and whether the “3+ Armor Mafia” can get back to competing on the tabletop…

Elites, DLC and Marines coming out next Month

Mkay, I apparently read too many other blogs…  Goatboy had a pretty decent write-up about how “Elite” as a slot in the 6^th edition Codices has become something less than “Elite” here http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/08/goatboys-monday-40k-elites-are-not-so.html.  I’d have to agree for the most part.  But the same can be said of Fast and Heavy Support really…  While HS has some of the “BFG” stuff, and both HS and FA CAN become scoring in certain missions, frankly the current edition punishes you for bringing anything other than “Troops” or things that can be made Scoring more often than not.  So, the books with the best “Troops” are the most successful armies.  Have to admit, this is one of my major concerns with the upcoming Marine book.

Rumor has the Grav weapons coming in with AP of 2.  So, the new Melta perhaps?  Just remembering 5^th edition where there were IG Vet Squads, whatever else, all armed with as many Melta weapons as they could because there were a lot of Vehicles and there frankly was no real disadvantage to the use of Melta.  It killed “Whatever” you were shooting at.  In some cases not as efficiently as Plasma, but it wouldn't kill YOU for shooting the weapon, so…  Oh, and it was/is cheaper. Hoping the Grav weapons are not too over the top silly, but good to see ancient things hitting the field again...  Now, hoping the AA stuff is actually good enough to keep the Heldrakes at bay for a bit...

In any case, the current Tactical Squad in the Marine books is pretty worthless in my opinion.  Not very mobile, the bolter isn't that powerful a weapon these days, and the 3+ armor just isn’t what it was years ago.  Scouts with the proliferation of “no cover saves” in recent books have taken yet another hit and are now back to novelty status from a solid, cheap Troop option.  And…?  With the Vanilla Codex, a bike CPT would allow you to use Bike Squads as Troops I guess.  Great, until you hit your first Heldrake or Tau gunline.  Then, just more expensive casualties.  Blood Angels get Assault Squads as Troops, as well as Death Company (and DC DNs).  Assault troops are “eh” these days overall.  I do FAR better with them than my Tac Marines in my Fleshtearer force as the Jump Packs at least make the lads mobile enough to try to run a flank or use a big piece of terrain to hide in and assault out of…  So, against all but the most powerful armies like the Necron air force, Chaos allies, Tau Gunlines and now Eldar forces they can at least be a threat that must be dealt with…  The Death Company are really only technically Troops as they can NEVER hold anything, so they are just shock troops for me.  Kill as much as they can and hope I have the only force still standing at the end.  Not being able to assault out of Reserve for the most part means that Scouts and Deep Strikers by and large are no nearly so good as they were.  Oh, and there are Interceptors now that can just kill you as you hit the field.  So, even less useful given I can only Reserve 50% or so of the force in this edition.  Target saturation is hard when you only have a few Deep Strikers…

So, back on topic J..  I am interested to see what, if anything else that GW does for the old Tactical Marines.  It does not appear as if they will themselves be getting anything in the lines of new Transports or armor, so…  Well, I am assuming a major points reduction at least, but really what else?  Another Melta Gun is neat and all, but what else can they do?  Just having the required bodies to hold objectives is not enough I think.  They probably wouldn't get the Sternguard ammo types, and that might well be overly powerful…  Remembering the old CCW/Pistol/Rifle weapon load out would be nice, but really nothing new or all that useful.  Seeing the Tau get the ability to provide cover fire for their own people as they get charged and this being applied in the Apocalypse Marine formation?  Might be something that at least some of the new Tactical Marines might get something to that effect…   But what else really?  Guess this is why I’m not a game developer…

Other thing, the Supplemental Codices…  Are they really supplemental or are they something different?  http://blog.spikeybits.com/2013/08/editorial-digital-releases-are-they.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SpikeyBits+%28Spikey+Bits%29

Pretty darn expensive for the 2 pages of rules, and of course there is the whole bypassing the FLGS thing…  Since I actually PLAY at the game store, I’d much prefer to make my purchases there.  ‘course, with electronic content, this is not an option.  For the most part I am not really seeing this as a major problem…  So far they’re “neat” options, but nothing game breaking or really overly powerful that will be dominating the competitive scene.  I know GW does not support this and they claim to not to care or write their rules with this in mind, but this is how a LOT of the game is played here in the States…  The fact that the rules are “exclusive” and not generally available to everyone is a major concern for me as a player in a tournament, and honestly I’m not sure I’d be allowing them as the Tournament Organizer…  I have a small one coming up at the Gopher next month, and due to the size, not a major issue for me J…  But of course by then at least one more will be released, and if this is the one that breaks it?  I guess my major objection to this is the clear “cash grab” as they release the DLC a bit at a time for “premium” prices.  I am concerned that the cost will continue to shoot up while they release more and more things that break the game further, requiring the competitive players to keep buying direct from GW…  Guess we’ll see.