Mkay, thinking about the few fixes I think that would make the game actually a LOT more playable. Not saying any of this will ever happen, and it would likely break something else down the line if applied. Still, here goes...
As of right now, the biggest single issue I see is that Fliers are simply unmatched and unevenly applied across the armies... Some armies get loads of them, and those that get the ability to field LOTS of them seem to have the ones... Well, let's call them "less balanced in the current environment"... Broken, but wanting to stay away from a "complaining" tone... Specifically, some armies have NO access to either Fliers or AAA of any sort. That is JUST counting the GW published things, with the exception of the Tyranids I know every army has SOMETHING they could field as AA or has actual Fliers... Tyranids have Flying MC's, but REALLY not the same IMO. Strange to think that the Hive Mind would not have come up with an effective way to deal with Fighters and Bombers, but what would I know...
So:
1) Hitting Fliers on 6's (snap fire only) is simply too much of an advantage for Fliers when it is not matched with an equal disadvantage... Well, let's be honest here, there is NO disadvantage to fliers engaging ground targets... IE: Fliers can only hit ground targets on a 6 unless they go to a more vulnerable "low altitude/hover" mode, in which case ground fire becomes more effective... Something on the order of halving the BS or simply steal the "Mortis" rule and say anything that stood still gets "Skyfire" that turn... Most things hitting on 5's doesn't seem like TOO much an advantage, every HW having Skyfire might well be too much as most HW's only fire well when standing still...
2) Not every army has Fliers. Given, but it is sticking out like a very sore thumb right now with some armies having a LOT of them, and others getting none or perhaps one or two overpriced pieces of junk. Not very conducive to seeing a variety of armies on the table. And having entire armies relegated to "well, they make decent Allies" status is pretty much unacceptable to the player base who have collected large armies... Not even touching on the Game Stores who have stock of things relegated to "well, that's useless crap"... Of the armies I play some are OK... I have Blood Angels (Fleshtearers), GK, Marines (Crimson Fists), and IG (Praetorians) all of whom have either good/decent fliers and AA support. My DA (Consecrators) I would also add to this list with the addition of the FW Mortis DN rules. The Flak missiles are craptastic at best and NOT worth another 10 points on top of the 15 for the Launcher. So, leaves my Wolves and Eldar as being completely hosed when it comes to facing Fliers. Right now, playing Wolves seem foolish as I have no answer for the Necron or Chaos armies I am seeing commonly. The Eldar are just so far behind the current "curve" that they are pretty much impossible to compete with. 2 full editions behind after so many major changes is simply impossible to keep up. Just thinking that they have served enough penance for the stupidly overpowered 2nd/3rd ed codexes... So here is where I think the "stroke of the pen" as it were would even things out... Just like the Land Raider Crusader went to all Marine forces from Black Templar only, why would ALL Marine armies not have access to the Storm Raven and Storm Talon? Simple thing and mind boggling that it was NOT done initially or even in the $30 FAQ they just released. I know it is REALLY only the Wolves at this point who have NO fliers... Frustrating as they have a bloody "Fighter Ace" chart they can buy a roll on... With the Eldar, pull a Necron Codex on them. Simply make the Fast Skimmers into Fliers with Hover mode... Yeah, it would be insanely overpowered... Just like the Necron Codex :-)... Pretty much goes without saying that ALL missile launchers should get Flak missiles as a free upgrade... Craptastic, but as a free upgrade, would at least not be so bad...
3) Useless things... For me one of the most frustrating things is something like the Land Raider Redeemer. Looks neat on paper until you realize that the rules make it completely useless. Now, not just the LRR, but pretty much any sponson mounted flamer... Baal Predator and Leman Russ come to mind, there may be more... So, by the rules essentially only one of the 2 will ever fire... My thought was to make it a Torrent weapon. Hell, the IG have this in their Hellhound, so it's not like there aren't a billion examples of this sort of thing out there. Yes, it might be powerful putting down 2 flamer templates 12" out and maybe hitting for a whole bunch of wounds... OTOH, 250 points for limited transport and a bunch of useless weapons? At the least they should be given split fire so they CAN shoot at multiple targets... So essentially, go through and find the useless "stuff" and make a few minor tweaks and changes to make them all at least useful... Some things like Wolf Blood Claws may well be beyond saving, so...
Yeah a bit of time on my hands :-) Working out, etc...
Wednesday, February 27, 2013
1K for the next League... So Fleshtearers?
Looking like we're doing a simple(ish) team games league next... Each player brings 1000 points to be teamed up... Will I think at the least alleviate the table situation we are facing at the moment. Despite what is happening elsewhere (referencing Stelek's comments on http://yesthetruthhurts.com/), our local group has only grown recently to the point that on Mondays we actually have folks waiting for the first run of games to conclude before they can get a table. 7-8 tables I think is pretty much the maximum we can really have in play, so after the first 16 players are set usually we have a "second wave" showing up in the 6:30-7 range to get in another round... This should get us all playing and moving along...
Only down side I see is the caveat of you CAN bring a 2000 point force and just play that. Great if it is just the "when there are an odd number of players" thing, but someone wanting to play an "I'm here to win, whatever the cost" army will have a MUCH easier time bringing a hard to beat force at 2000 points than 1000 + partner. Example being if I bring a Sternguard Squad in a 1K list, I cannot max it out and still have a force that can still win on it's own. At 2K, the bells, whistles and maxxed out Squad still is in the 300-400 point range, so not a problem as that will be the "First Blood" hunter and probably "Warlord Assassin Team". I could even bring in an "Ally" in Pedro Cantor and make them Scoring... Other examples abound, mostly with the maximum number of say, good/broken Fliers packed into the list and then filler Troops. NOT saying I see anyone doing this locally, by and large we are more of a "fun" group than cut throat win at all cost group... Just that the possibility exists.
Guessing I will field my reconstructed "Storm Raven" (Vendetta conversion I picked up in a trade)... Just seeing WAY too many Fliers hitting the table, and with decent rolls this could provide me with a counter to a small horde (3-4) of the enemy vehicles without going that route myself. At 1K, I have much more "limited" options for AAA otherwise, so I am rather hoping NOT to be facing a lot of them across the table. So, that more or less defines 20% of my force... Full Squads of Jump Troops run me in the low 200's as well. Scouts are a possibility as well, but even they are almost 200... Not as versatile, but having camping Snipers HAS won me several games... Counting on them to actually kill shit? Not so much...
What I'd LIKE to field would be a Jump Pack equipped Death Company (Yeah, I've been playing THAT since 3rd ed... Hasn't always been "good", but now other than the "Can Never Score" thing, they are quite good), the DC DN, something in a decent HtH Character and Vanguard Vets to back up my Sternguard... At 2K, I can do this. 1K no... The Heavy Tank forces are starting to make a comeback, so the ability to drop in Melta on top of them and shoot or Assault out of Deep Strike with Melta Bombs/Fists is HUGE. I don't have a Horde/crowd control option like with the DA Banner list, but figure I can shoot well enough and selectively engage in HtH... Tyranid hordes will be a problem, but not many play them locally... And even then, play the mission, not the Army, I've beaten the Tyranid swarms with armies that should not have survived before... :-) Maybe I can do it again...
Only down side I see is the caveat of you CAN bring a 2000 point force and just play that. Great if it is just the "when there are an odd number of players" thing, but someone wanting to play an "I'm here to win, whatever the cost" army will have a MUCH easier time bringing a hard to beat force at 2000 points than 1000 + partner. Example being if I bring a Sternguard Squad in a 1K list, I cannot max it out and still have a force that can still win on it's own. At 2K, the bells, whistles and maxxed out Squad still is in the 300-400 point range, so not a problem as that will be the "First Blood" hunter and probably "Warlord Assassin Team". I could even bring in an "Ally" in Pedro Cantor and make them Scoring... Other examples abound, mostly with the maximum number of say, good/broken Fliers packed into the list and then filler Troops. NOT saying I see anyone doing this locally, by and large we are more of a "fun" group than cut throat win at all cost group... Just that the possibility exists.
Guessing I will field my reconstructed "Storm Raven" (Vendetta conversion I picked up in a trade)... Just seeing WAY too many Fliers hitting the table, and with decent rolls this could provide me with a counter to a small horde (3-4) of the enemy vehicles without going that route myself. At 1K, I have much more "limited" options for AAA otherwise, so I am rather hoping NOT to be facing a lot of them across the table. So, that more or less defines 20% of my force... Full Squads of Jump Troops run me in the low 200's as well. Scouts are a possibility as well, but even they are almost 200... Not as versatile, but having camping Snipers HAS won me several games... Counting on them to actually kill shit? Not so much...
What I'd LIKE to field would be a Jump Pack equipped Death Company (Yeah, I've been playing THAT since 3rd ed... Hasn't always been "good", but now other than the "Can Never Score" thing, they are quite good), the DC DN, something in a decent HtH Character and Vanguard Vets to back up my Sternguard... At 2K, I can do this. 1K no... The Heavy Tank forces are starting to make a comeback, so the ability to drop in Melta on top of them and shoot or Assault out of Deep Strike with Melta Bombs/Fists is HUGE. I don't have a Horde/crowd control option like with the DA Banner list, but figure I can shoot well enough and selectively engage in HtH... Tyranid hordes will be a problem, but not many play them locally... And even then, play the mission, not the Army, I've beaten the Tyranid swarms with armies that should not have survived before... :-) Maybe I can do it again...
Monday, February 25, 2013
Last shot with the DA for this League...
Looking like I have one game tonight and another makeup game for the Tournament that I had do leave early from to determine 3rd place...
So, tonight I intend to bring something completely different and probably silly. List follows:
Belial
Deathwing Squad (10, 4 TH/SS, CML, Flamer)
Deathwing Squad (10, 2 CML, 5 TH/SS)
Nephilim Fighter
Mortis DN (TLACx2)
Mortis DN (TLAC x2)
Ravenwing (Melta, Attack Bike w/MM)
Ravenwing Speeder (TML, MM)
So, 2 DN and the Bikes are on the field to start, probably Reserve for the Speeder, and DW Assault the Terminators. Fighter does the Fighter thing, and hopefully with the Mortis DNs keeps the fliers off my back. Guessing it is overkill, but I am caring less :-) Might go to a TL Las Cannon on one of the DNs though... Might be amusing.
On the hobby front, rebuilding the wrecked "Stormraven" I traded for a while back... Getting some color on it and have it mostly rebuilt. Just need to either attach the wings or figure out a way to magnetize them... Getting some more of the Vallejo "Brown Violet" onto my ancient IG vehicles to make them consistent for my Praetorians. Haven't painted many more of the lads, but I DID pick up some of the "Stormtroopers" for the army... Looking forward to assembling some of them I think.
Honestly, I am a bit concerned that the IG are still overpowered. Have seen the entries for the few rules contained in the "DftS" book, and they did not really change the IG at all, nor did they touch the Necrons other than to "remove" Deep Strike from both... "Eh", honestly not sure I've ever seen a flier Deep Strike, there is simply no need if they can just cruise onto the field up to 36" without risk and get wherever they need to go... Still thinking that the whole Flier thing is broken at the moment, and Allies are another major source of problems for the game... But, we'll see how things work out in the longer run...
So, tonight I intend to bring something completely different and probably silly. List follows:
Belial
Deathwing Squad (10, 4 TH/SS, CML, Flamer)
Deathwing Squad (10, 2 CML, 5 TH/SS)
Nephilim Fighter
Mortis DN (TLACx2)
Mortis DN (TLAC x2)
Ravenwing (Melta, Attack Bike w/MM)
Ravenwing Speeder (TML, MM)
So, 2 DN and the Bikes are on the field to start, probably Reserve for the Speeder, and DW Assault the Terminators. Fighter does the Fighter thing, and hopefully with the Mortis DNs keeps the fliers off my back. Guessing it is overkill, but I am caring less :-) Might go to a TL Las Cannon on one of the DNs though... Might be amusing.
On the hobby front, rebuilding the wrecked "Stormraven" I traded for a while back... Getting some color on it and have it mostly rebuilt. Just need to either attach the wings or figure out a way to magnetize them... Getting some more of the Vallejo "Brown Violet" onto my ancient IG vehicles to make them consistent for my Praetorians. Haven't painted many more of the lads, but I DID pick up some of the "Stormtroopers" for the army... Looking forward to assembling some of them I think.
Honestly, I am a bit concerned that the IG are still overpowered. Have seen the entries for the few rules contained in the "DftS" book, and they did not really change the IG at all, nor did they touch the Necrons other than to "remove" Deep Strike from both... "Eh", honestly not sure I've ever seen a flier Deep Strike, there is simply no need if they can just cruise onto the field up to 36" without risk and get wherever they need to go... Still thinking that the whole Flier thing is broken at the moment, and Allies are another major source of problems for the game... But, we'll see how things work out in the longer run...
Wednesday, February 20, 2013
Assembling more fliers...
So, decided to actually get to assembling some fliers I gathered over the last few months... A buddy sent me one of these:
So, guessing that will be my stand-in DA flier or Storm Talon if I run my Crimson Fists... I'll see how close to the actual model next week, but it is looking darn close, or at least close enough for me :-)...
I also have a Valkyrie that someone converted to be a Storm Raven of sorts... Of course, it is in pieces and poorly base coated, but my Fleshtearers will do well with a Raven I think.... Yes, 200 points, but I think it would take down enemy fliers easily enough. Just a but curious if my BA version is the "new" one in the DftS book or the codex one... So far the FAQ seems to indicate that not much changes, just lose Deep Strike and the combat drops are a bit odd... Not something I'd plan on doing in any case, so not issue :-)
Speaking of which I am thinking that I will be finishing up my Fleshtearers as my next project. I miss the Jump Troops, and the DA are Battle Brothers, so I could bring Belial, a Deathwing Squad and a Mortis DN to the party... Brings to mind the "They Live" line of "We're here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... And we're all out of gum..." I think that would be amusing...
So, guessing that will be my stand-in DA flier or Storm Talon if I run my Crimson Fists... I'll see how close to the actual model next week, but it is looking darn close, or at least close enough for me :-)...
I also have a Valkyrie that someone converted to be a Storm Raven of sorts... Of course, it is in pieces and poorly base coated, but my Fleshtearers will do well with a Raven I think.... Yes, 200 points, but I think it would take down enemy fliers easily enough. Just a but curious if my BA version is the "new" one in the DftS book or the codex one... So far the FAQ seems to indicate that not much changes, just lose Deep Strike and the combat drops are a bit odd... Not something I'd plan on doing in any case, so not issue :-)
Speaking of which I am thinking that I will be finishing up my Fleshtearers as my next project. I miss the Jump Troops, and the DA are Battle Brothers, so I could bring Belial, a Deathwing Squad and a Mortis DN to the party... Brings to mind the "They Live" line of "We're here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... And we're all out of gum..." I think that would be amusing...
Tuesday, February 19, 2013
Eldar, thoughts on an elliptical...
So, as part of my "get my ass back into shape" routine I was spending some time on the elliptical in the basement... I've always been one who can think a LOT better on the move... Helped me a LOT when I was off playing Army :-)...
Anyway, I got to thinking... What would make the Eldar Codex instantly competitive and probably overpowered? How about doing the same thing they did with the Necrons? Just declare their Fast Skimmers to be Fliers. Then, wait a few hours and listen for the distinctive sound of heads exploding all over the Internet :-)... Yeah, wouldn't work I'm guessing, but would sure be amusing watching the worst codex leap to the top of the heap.
On the other hand let's see what exactly it would do:
Give the Army up to 6 flying transports... Just like the Necrons.
Give the Army up to 3 Heavy Support flying tanks... Hmmm, sounds familiar...
AV 12 Fliers? Check, see them all over the place these days...
So, really what would they do that the IG and Necrons do not already do? So, other than keeping the power spiral moving up, not a lot different than what already is hitting the table... Would be a cheap (for GW) and provide a bit of variety to the game... So, yeah, probably too bored with 40K at the moment... It just has the feel of a "Beta" product to me, having play tested a number of other systems and done that "programming" thing in the old days... 'course, just my opinion as als=ways, I could be wrong...
Anyway, I got to thinking... What would make the Eldar Codex instantly competitive and probably overpowered? How about doing the same thing they did with the Necrons? Just declare their Fast Skimmers to be Fliers. Then, wait a few hours and listen for the distinctive sound of heads exploding all over the Internet :-)... Yeah, wouldn't work I'm guessing, but would sure be amusing watching the worst codex leap to the top of the heap.
On the other hand let's see what exactly it would do:
Give the Army up to 6 flying transports... Just like the Necrons.
Give the Army up to 3 Heavy Support flying tanks... Hmmm, sounds familiar...
AV 12 Fliers? Check, see them all over the place these days...
So, really what would they do that the IG and Necrons do not already do? So, other than keeping the power spiral moving up, not a lot different than what already is hitting the table... Would be a cheap (for GW) and provide a bit of variety to the game... So, yeah, probably too bored with 40K at the moment... It just has the feel of a "Beta" product to me, having play tested a number of other systems and done that "programming" thing in the old days... 'course, just my opinion as als=ways, I could be wrong...
Sunday, February 17, 2013
Is it Second Edition again?
Ok, a bit of a rant :-)
A group of us were talking about Second Edition 40K during/before the Tournament today... And I have to wonder if we are not heading there or already there. Now, back in 2nd Edition just before it died, you had things like Ravenwing Speeders that literally could not be hit by a lot of armies, needed a 7+ to hit with modifiers, tough to do on a d6... And then the Eldar could do the bad "nose touching" thing putting their Jet Bikes in BtB with their chosen target for a drive by HtH attack and shooting attack... And this seems to be exactly where we are with the Chaos Heldrake... It is a fly by attack that cannot miss, just hits for d3+1 Str 7 Ap 3 hits then flamer template at Str 6, AP 3 again. So, no chance to fail and pretty much will be killing off bunches of 3+ or worse saves... Right now, there are simply not enough defenses against fliers like this. In and of itself it will not be the thing that breaks the game, but it is moving closer. We have a Flier supplement that came out Saturday apparently, but not seeing it as it is "Direct Only" and only available through GW... Not something I could have pre-ordered at the local store. Maybe they will change some of the rules, point costs and or armor values/stats, but I doubt it given the history of the Company...
Second point is Allies... On the surface, it's "neat", but not a big deal. In practice though, it becomes an "All Stars Team" and a way to add extra slots... So, 3 HQ, 4 Heavy/Elite/FA, etc... And the interaction of a lot of the armies is odd at best, but being able to make giant blobs fearless, add fliers/Artillery/whatever... I hate to say it, but playing a "mono" army does put one at a disadvantage given that there are no real costs to field Allies... Especially if they are "close enough" Allies and can mix and match at will... I hate to feel like a fool for playing a "by the book"army, but I am fairly sure that my Wolves are completely useless in the current environment. Without going to FW stuff in the Mortis DN, etc., even the new DA codex is simply not all that capable of handling a top tier list. I guess it is something to think about. I'm not thrilled that I think that the IG allies are necessary to actually have a chance of winning, but...
A group of us were talking about Second Edition 40K during/before the Tournament today... And I have to wonder if we are not heading there or already there. Now, back in 2nd Edition just before it died, you had things like Ravenwing Speeders that literally could not be hit by a lot of armies, needed a 7+ to hit with modifiers, tough to do on a d6... And then the Eldar could do the bad "nose touching" thing putting their Jet Bikes in BtB with their chosen target for a drive by HtH attack and shooting attack... And this seems to be exactly where we are with the Chaos Heldrake... It is a fly by attack that cannot miss, just hits for d3+1 Str 7 Ap 3 hits then flamer template at Str 6, AP 3 again. So, no chance to fail and pretty much will be killing off bunches of 3+ or worse saves... Right now, there are simply not enough defenses against fliers like this. In and of itself it will not be the thing that breaks the game, but it is moving closer. We have a Flier supplement that came out Saturday apparently, but not seeing it as it is "Direct Only" and only available through GW... Not something I could have pre-ordered at the local store. Maybe they will change some of the rules, point costs and or armor values/stats, but I doubt it given the history of the Company...
Second point is Allies... On the surface, it's "neat", but not a big deal. In practice though, it becomes an "All Stars Team" and a way to add extra slots... So, 3 HQ, 4 Heavy/Elite/FA, etc... And the interaction of a lot of the armies is odd at best, but being able to make giant blobs fearless, add fliers/Artillery/whatever... I hate to say it, but playing a "mono" army does put one at a disadvantage given that there are no real costs to field Allies... Especially if they are "close enough" Allies and can mix and match at will... I hate to feel like a fool for playing a "by the book"army, but I am fairly sure that my Wolves are completely useless in the current environment. Without going to FW stuff in the Mortis DN, etc., even the new DA codex is simply not all that capable of handling a top tier list. I guess it is something to think about. I'm not thrilled that I think that the IG allies are necessary to actually have a chance of winning, but...
Friday, February 15, 2013
1850 Tournament Sunday...
So, looking like I'll be making the trek over to Decatur for the League Tournament... After finding out that my Mortis class DN is "40K Approved" and gained Skyfire and Interceptor if it stands still... So 125 points for a pretty darn good AA vehicle that also doubles as a decent defense against things appearing from Reserves like say, Rambo... 4 Str 7 AP 4 shots can usually deal with him and put a decent hurting on Storm-troopers dropping in... Not so great against Marine class armor, but can't have it all I guess :-)...
So, one of the bigger decisions I need to make is Belial or Azrael for the leader... With Belial I play my hyper aggressive Deathwing Assault and drop in usually Turn 1 and KNOW I will hit exactly where I want, split fire if I can, but put a Troop that is darn resilient and impossible to break deep inside the enemy DZ. Not a lot of disadvantages there, mostly just little things like a mostly useless Warlord Trait, NOT giving the high LD to the army, and only making Deathwing Troops... Azrael gets to choose his Warlord trait, makes pretty much my whole army Scoring, LD 10, and... Well, down side I am relying on Teleport homers to drop the Deathwing in and on target... OTOH, I have 5-6 Scoring units if I go with 3 min squads of Deathwing... So, kind of leaning toward Azrael for the leadership...
Keeping the Banner, Techmarine and Land Raider Crusader... That combo is insane, and accounts for the "Horde Removal" portion of the list.... And it makes the flanking (flanking/escorting the LRC, NOT Flanking as in the entry mechanism) Ravenwing Bikes REALLY powerful shooting platforms as well.
So:
Azrael
Command Squad w/Banner of Devastation, Company Champion
Deathwing Squad (10, 4 TH/SS, CML, Flamer)
Deathwing Squad (5, 2 TH/SS, Flamer or Plasma)
Tactical Squad (5, ML w/ flak)
Mortis DN (2 x TLAC)
Ravenwing Squadron (3, Melta, Attack Bike w/MM)
Techmarine (Servo Arms, Power Field)
Land Raider Crusader (MM)
So, the army is my typical "Not Subtle" force... Big, Heavy Tank, flanked by the bikes and the Terminators Deep Striking in around the assault element... Just drive right at one of the enemy flanks or onto an objective and take it. Hold until time runs out or the Enemy runs out of bodies to throw at us... Doubt I'll win the Tournament again, but this force I think will be a contender...
So, one of the bigger decisions I need to make is Belial or Azrael for the leader... With Belial I play my hyper aggressive Deathwing Assault and drop in usually Turn 1 and KNOW I will hit exactly where I want, split fire if I can, but put a Troop that is darn resilient and impossible to break deep inside the enemy DZ. Not a lot of disadvantages there, mostly just little things like a mostly useless Warlord Trait, NOT giving the high LD to the army, and only making Deathwing Troops... Azrael gets to choose his Warlord trait, makes pretty much my whole army Scoring, LD 10, and... Well, down side I am relying on Teleport homers to drop the Deathwing in and on target... OTOH, I have 5-6 Scoring units if I go with 3 min squads of Deathwing... So, kind of leaning toward Azrael for the leadership...
Keeping the Banner, Techmarine and Land Raider Crusader... That combo is insane, and accounts for the "Horde Removal" portion of the list.... And it makes the flanking (flanking/escorting the LRC, NOT Flanking as in the entry mechanism) Ravenwing Bikes REALLY powerful shooting platforms as well.
So:
Azrael
Command Squad w/Banner of Devastation, Company Champion
Deathwing Squad (10, 4 TH/SS, CML, Flamer)
Deathwing Squad (5, 2 TH/SS, Flamer or Plasma)
Tactical Squad (5, ML w/ flak)
Mortis DN (2 x TLAC)
Ravenwing Squadron (3, Melta, Attack Bike w/MM)
Techmarine (Servo Arms, Power Field)
Land Raider Crusader (MM)
So, the army is my typical "Not Subtle" force... Big, Heavy Tank, flanked by the bikes and the Terminators Deep Striking in around the assault element... Just drive right at one of the enemy flanks or onto an objective and take it. Hold until time runs out or the Enemy runs out of bodies to throw at us... Doubt I'll win the Tournament again, but this force I think will be a contender...
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