Crimson Fists vs IG

Mkay, going mostly from memory, I played against Marc last evening, 1850 points he brought his Armored IG, I had my CF, testing some different stuff...

He fielded:

Lord Commissar (2 Plasma Pistols)
Vendetta (3 TL LC, 2 HB)
Vulture (I think, FW flier, TL Punisher Gatling Cannon, HB)
2 Leman Russ w/ Punisher, MM sponsons and LC hull mount
Leman Russ Exterminator (Las Cannon)
Vet Squad (Plasmas, Carapice, in a Chimera)
Vet Squad (Meltas, Plasma?  Rode in Vendetta w/ Commissar)
Bane Wolf (MM, Chem flamer)
Line PLT, 3 squads, Commissar


I fielded:
CPT on bike w/Primarch's bolter
Command Squad on bikes w/melta, 3 Grav guns and a Medic
Bike Squad w/MM, 2 Grav guns full squad
2 Scout Squads, cloaks, bolters, snipers, etc...  2 Speeder Storms, 1 MM, 1 HF
Centurion Devastator Squad w/2 Grav Cannon, missiles and split fire
Hunter
Legion of the Damned
Storm Raven
Rifleman DN
Everything that could combat squad, did.  DN rode in the Raven, Bolter Scouts in Storms flanked

So, he got first turn...  Set up his 2 Punisher tanks on his left flank, Executioner on far right. Line PLT in the center in a building.  I sent my Centurions to my left opposite his Exterminator.  Scouts set up in same building and the far Right flank.  Had to start the Bike Squads behind cover as well.  Reserved the Command Squad and Hunter along with the Legion, Raven and Storms.  First turn was my Scouts weathering a LOT of punisher shooting along the way...  My turn was the Devastators moving up and wrecking the Chimeras (well, one Chimera and the Bane Wolf) for First Blood.

His Warlord Trait was -1 to my Reserve rolls...  So while his fliers came in and helped him collapse my Right flank by killing off the few remaining Scouts there and the bulk of my Centurions, I only had my Hunter come in.  My Bike Squads survived by making lots of cover/Armor saves, but are cut down to only a few members each.  I charge one Bike Squad into his Vets and hope for the best...  The other lasts until next turn, but...  So, lots of things die on both side, but I have more reserves so while the board looks sparse for me...  I have to get my lads to the field and let them go...

Turn 3, I have 2 Sniper Scouts alive hiding in a Ruin.  I think mostly because we both forgot about them.  This turn I get the bulk of my Reserves, all but one Scout Speeder (MM one) arrive and it starts to look good for the Marines.  The Storm Raven drops the Rifleman off on the way in, then proceeds to fire at the Punisher Tanks...  Killed one Tank and damages the other.  The Rifleman opens up on the last Chimera and kills it.  LoD and Scout Speeder damage the Executioner.  Last Biker kills off his Vets and then retreats...  To die next turn, but...

Turn 4, his damaged Vendetta drops out the Commissar's squad...  The kill off a the few remaining Bikers hanging around and I think somewhere along the line my Centurions die to the massed fire...  The Storm Raven and Scout Speeders I think off his now hovering Fliers...  To be fair, I think it would not have really mattered had they been Hovering or Flying as the Raven can target 2 with it's array of Vehicle killing weapons and almost guarantee splashing one and potentially both.  Coming in late left his Fliers exposed to a Riposte from the Claymore that is a Storm Raven.  Was good that his lads deployed from the Transport else when I splash the Vendetta, most of them die.  Pretty sure my LoD and remaining bikes in his DZ are killed, but my Scouts and a few other things shoot in and kill off his PCS.

Turn 5 is mostly cleanup, he moves to cover the objective, I shoot him off of it and consolidate.  He still has a fair number of lads in his Platoon, but Las Guns are not going to slow down my Command Squad set to crash in and deal with them in HtH...  After unloading the rest of my army into them.  I do not control the Objective at my Scouts are either in his DZ or have been forgotten and are camping out with a nice lunch started in the original Ruin.  Raven kills off his last Tank that has just vaporized my Rifleman...  Now, the Raven is completely out of real targets as MM/LC are overkill against IG Grunts, but had we continued, so be it... Over the course of 2 more turns I COULD have gotten the Objective as the one Combat Squad with a Storm woula have been able to Turbo Boost over there and deploy onto it the next turn.  Would have been easier to just kill off the remainder of the Platoon though I think...

So, the stars for his side?  Vulture with the huge number of shots on Strafing...  His Punishers were also quite good, but honestly easier for me to take down.  Their weapons have too short a range to NOT play aggressively and so they tend to move beyond their own Support elements and die.  His PCS was also quite good, though I think 2 more Flamers might have been good there.  They played "Linebacker" and dealt with Deep Strikers coming in.  Heavy Weapons in the Line Platoon would have been huge, as it was I could safely ignore that element and deal with the rest.  But they did last the game...

Stars for me?  Bikes are actually quite deadly now...  Making them Troops and Combat Squads means I can saturate the field in Scoring units...  They did well.  The Raven was amazing.  The Rifleman, not so much, but...  LoD was "Eh" at best I think.  Scouts on LS Storms were really quite good.  Flanking and rolling in with a bunch of Bolters and a Heavy Bolter re-rolling 1's to hit is nice...  And...  Well, the CPT did well, and the Grav weapons on bikes were nice, but highly situational I think.  Hunter paid for itself bringing down the then Skimming Flier, and bringing it in from Reserve will I think be SOP henceforth...   Overall the Army did well, would have been better as a White Scar force, but...

Is Forgeworld the equalizer?

So, looking at the rules for the Heresy stuff and other Forgeworld things…  Seems like therein lies the answer to some of the cheesy silliness.  Sad to say, but without a major FAQ or revision from GW it is looking more and more like FW again is the only way to achieve actual balance in the game.  Not sure if people out there are still using the FW AAA…  We used it a bit here and the Mortis class DN is  a staple for the DA players, but the things like the IG platforms?  Not really at all…  But only a small number of IG players locally, and as the main one is playing an armored force with air cover of his own, I think he is FAR less concerned about enemy fliers… 

Was reading a battle report earlier over on BOLS (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/30-40k-batrep-sons-of-horus-vs.html) that pitted a Heresy era force up against an ultra-modern Tau force loaded out with 4 (!!!) Riptides.  So, showing the ease of abuse with the ability to ally with your own army to gain additional HQ/Heavy/Whatever slots…  Something I am thinking is an issue, but what would I know…  In any case, the Chaos player brings a force essentially consisting of 3 specialist Land Raiders…  Well, one Spartan which I guess is no longer a Land Raider (MINE are, both of the bloody things J) and 2 Phobos class Raiders, all of which had Ceremite Plating meaning no Melta.  So, without Melta, that means really only MC coming over to kill them in HtH and risk being dragged down by the CC Terminators inside…  If they don’t just die to the masses Twin Linked Las Cannons that is…  8 of them in this configuration.  Might be overkill for a lot of things, but barring some lucky rolling, should put enough Wounds onto one/turn to at least scare them…  Yes, 4 are going to be a problem, but really unless they play hyper aggressively they can’t deal with the 3 heavily armored Tanks themselves.  The Eldar Wraithknight with the Str 10 D Cannon can probably…  Maybe…  But becoming immune to the Melta effect is HUGE.  Thinking I will be looking at one of the Achilles Class as they have the Quad Mortar/Thunderfire Cannon and are immune to Lance as well as the Melta weapons.  Transport Capacity of 6 though, so it’ll be a Command Squad or Honor Guard…  A fitting ride I think for a Chapter Master or Captain though…

I guess I am really concerned that the only way to make a competitive army without playing one of the 2 uber armies at the moment is to find something equally broken in the Forgeworld area…  Locally we play them I think and most big tourneys seem to allow them.  Just feels wrong.  But I think I have a line on a modern Spartan Class Tank from an old Army buddy of mine…  Apparently I have too many magazines, clips, etc. for some ancient firearms, and so…  J 

Since I have a BUNCH of pre-Heresy stuff, and the FW resin looks amazing, kind of looking forward to putting together a 30K army...

Pics of works in progress and a bit more...

So, just a few pics of the things I am working on...  Nothing too extensive, but getting some ancient models ready to hit the table...

So, building a Land Speeder Storm, Bastions, Centurion Devastator stand ins, Swooping Hawks, Storm Talon stand-in, some ancient Scouts with Bolters and  the Marine w/ Shuriken Catapult to stand in as a Grav Gun I think...

Looking at my armies and current projects in the Basement of Doom © I have way too much on that wee painting table.  And frankly finding less and less motivation to actually paint them to maybe play them…

1.      Still stripping and repainting my Praetorian IG, but that is a LONG term project with several hundred models.  And riding the motorcycle, not a practical army to be transporting.  Rumor has them getting a new Codex early next year.  I think they are still way too good in this edition, though I know I do not be any means have an “optimized” force playing mine as a Light Rifles Company.  Still, while they are NOT unbeaten while I play them, I think I have only lost to gimmick setups for a LONG time.  By Gimmick I mean the Scenario allowed say, an Assault based horde army to set up at the mid-point, something like 12” away from my line as I was packed into a corner.  If I had more than a single turn to actually fire before getting overrun…  But that was 5^th edition.  In 6^th I think they still do an amazingly powerful gun line.  Only real struggles are keeping something like Daemons at bay.  But I have Aegis lines, Hydras, Vendettas, etc…  Sadly, running them with Wolves as allies for Psychic Defenses and effectively unbreakable blobs is not a bad thing.  Silly tricks like DA or GK allied in give things like 4++ Fearless blobs or other things really outside of  balance…  NOT really suitable for fast paced Tournament games, so unlikely to see them there…  And frankly, the modern gun lines like Eldar Serpent Spam can throw out a LOT of firepower.  More below…
2.        DA…  Yes, I have a BUNCH of them still in various stages of painting.  Picked up one of the new Terminator Squad boxes…  And repainting/finishing up a bunch of my old models.  I CAN play a pretty good Dual Wing or Deathwing force…  Just such a low model count for overpriced things and the new gun lines put out SO MUCH fire that I’ll roll enough 1’s to just die.  Oh, and the bikes just evaporate to the Heldrakes.  No saves, wound on a 2 or 3 depending if it is the fly-by or flamer…  No defenses possible, unless you somehow get them Invulnerable saves…  Possible, but NOT cheap and that bunches you or slows you down so much…   And overall, the DA book still leaves a bitter taste as it had SUCH potential but ended up just being really bad all around.  Niche allies at best, sadly…
3.        Eldar…  Yes, I stopped painting and playing them for pretty much the opposite reason.  They are just way too good.  The Wave Serpent is insane, and since GW is “somewhat lax” doing things like writing, clarifying or providing FAQs for their rules you get some insane but completely legal combos.  Skyshield with Wave Serpents being the one that comes to mind here.  2+ cover save for a bunch of Vehicles that depending on how the TO rules might be immune to “ignores cover”.  And good luck getting up there to deal with them in HtH.  MOST tournaments do not have giant pieces of blocking terrain at the center of every table, and those are the only ones that I am seeing things like Chaos/Tyranids coming out on top with.  Alpha Strike or no, SO much shooting that it gets silly and they are immune to so much counter fire.  Kind of irking, I was really enjoying playing them in a non “optimized” fashion with Spiritseer and Wraiths as Troops, etc…  There are just SO many good things in the book, and it was interesting to play until this.  I felt it was overpowered before this and I felt pretty bad bringing them to play against folks bringing “fluffy” Chaos Marines, GK or the like, but this just put it way over the top.  Point and click for the win at the events, boring to play and boring to play against. 
4.      And finally the Crimson Fists I am working on now...  So far they are pretty good.  I am enjoying playing the Army and they are doing fairly well...  OK, strike that, they are kicking much ass.  But I have yet to face one of the forces I think will be a hard counter to them.  And unfortunately there are some armies that are simply hard counters to EVERYTHING.  Based on some very poorly written rules and their interaction with some very unclear things, it has led to a situation where I fear the game itself is just broken.  The problem is that until some of the stupidity is sorted out, not sure ANY Army will work.  Frankly, at this point barring local house rulings or a LOT of the major TOs  getting together and making an effectively universal ruling it is simply not worth playing in Tournaments I think...  Locally I think we'll avoid this, but...

 OK, that wound up more of a rant than I was thinking of...  And I haven't even touched all of my armies.  Fleshtearers are still "eh" at best, GK's have been passed I think.  Though ironically they would work very well against the Demons that have apparently been doing well in some of the Tournaments the way I play them at least...  I'm odd I guess as I actually play the GK with actual Knights as the focus and in fact the main part of the force...  But they lose easily I think to too many other things...  Fleshtearers are a Shock army.  I will be able to surprise some people attacking immediately and with everything, holding nothing back and taking chances not many others would...  Works once against most people, but once they have seen this thing, it will not work again, or not often...

Next Week, something completely different and the current meta?

So, looking to try something completely different…  Crimson Fists without Pedro Kantor.  Thinking that a Bike CPT gains me a Command Squad and access to Bike Squads (of 5 or more models) as Troops.

Captain (Bike, Primarch’s Wrath, LC)  145

Command Squad (Bikes, 3 Grav Guns, Melta Gun, Medic)  205

Bike Squad (8, Attack Bike w/MM, 2 Grav Guns) 253

Scout Squad (10, 4 Sniper, HB, Cloaks, LSS w/MM) 142+55

Bike Squad (8, Attack Bike w/MM, 2 Plasma Guns) 253

Centurion Devastators (LC, 2 Grav, Scope, ML) 290

Thunderfire Cannon  100

And…  Well, we tend to play at the 1850 level, so ~300 more points.  Hunter probably, or a Storm Raven for the last Heavy slot.  If Hunter then probably the Storm Talon and…  Well, more Cents?  Or the Legion again I suppose?  Dunno, something to think about…

Really, the above Army SHOULD be fielded as a White Scars one…  +1 cover save, Hit and Run, auto pass terrain tests and +1 Str Hammer of Wrath hits?  Essentially for free…  Yes, they lose the Tank Hunter for the Centurions and swap Bolters on Scouts for Shotguns I guess…  But my army is painted up AS Crimson Fists, so…

So, looking at the current local meta I think things are really starting to balance out.  Yes, the Marines still have to be aware of the Heldrake problem…  But at this point I do not feel totally outclassed by the Drakes.  Between my own fliers and some actual AAA I can field I have some things to threaten them and I’ve learned how to deal with them I guess…  Now, Chaos forces based on the Heldrakes fall pretty easily to the Tau and Eldar I think.  In turn, the Tau/Eldar based on the big nasty MCs they have fall to the Grav weapons fielded by the new Marines.  So, back to a more Rock-Paper-Scissors setup I think…  Necrons are still a tough army, but with the both massed and/or twin linked firepower and increased number of AA platforms or fliers I think their fliers are fairly weak.

Some of the assumptions made above really depend on a few very key rulings.  Primarily the one about “Ignores Cover” and that rule’s interaction with Vehicles.  RAW, it does specify “wound”, and as Vehicles do not have wounds it would in the strictest reading of the rules mean that it does not work against Vehicles.  This leads to silliness like Eldar Wave Serpents with Holo Fields sitting on a Skyshield Platform for the 2+ cover save in addition to the 4++ save the platform gives, should you get around the perimeter cover save…  THAT makes the Eldar stupidly overpowered, and it is not how we’ve been playing locally at least….  But that is not universal by any means.  The other is sort of related, the Grav weapons need some further clarification.  Do they ignore cover as they do NOT roll on the vehicle damage chart because they do not cause a glance or penetrating hit?  Also, should a vehicle get hit by 2 of them, does it take 2 Hull Points and immobilize the Vehicle OR does it take 3 HP as the second immobilized result strips another HP per the Vehicle damage chart?  I’d say it takes 3 HP because the result on the chart doesn’t specify “if this number is rolled”, and they recently FAQ’d rolling a 1 on difficult terrain for a Vehicle and immobilizing yourself does strip a HP as well…  So, IMO that would be consistent.  Yes, I know, applying a standard to which GW has not maintained over the years, consistency…  Still, would be a good thing I think to have officially clarified…

Battle Rep, Crimson Fists vs Chaos at 1850

Right, so played Joe L's Chaos Marines last night.  His list, from memory was:

Warp Smith with harness of doom, 5+ Inv
Land Raider
Squad of Marines with Melta and Flamer
Hell Brute w/Power Scourge
Hell Brute w/Plasma
3 Squads of Marines with Melta, Flamer in Rhinos w/Havoc Launchers
Obliterators
Vindicator
2 Heldrakes




I fielded my Crimson Fists:
Pedro Kantor
Honor Guard in Rhino
Tech Marine
Sternguard (10, 1 HF, 7 Combi Melta, 2 Combi Plasma, LC on SGT) in Drop Pod w/beacon
Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, HB, Bolters on rest) in Land Speeder Storm w/HF
Scout Squad (10, Cloaks, 4 Snipers, ML, Bolters on rest) in Land Speeder Storm w/MM
Legion of the Damned (5, Melta, Plasma Cannon)
Hunter
Rifleman DN (2x TL AC)
Storm Talon (TL LC)
Thunderfire Cannon
Centurion Devastators (3, 2 Grav Cannon, 1 TL LC, Missiles all around, SGT w/scope)

Everything that could Combat Squad did.  Bolter Scouts flanked in the LSSs.

We played Hammer and Anvil (Long table) with Emperor's Will (2 Objectives).  He got first turn on a table with something like 14 pieces of terrain, so loads of ruins.  I upgraded 2 in my DZ and he vetoed one, so only the one om my left was 3+.  I deployed my Rifleman Honor Guard w/ Pedro in Rhino and the Thunderfire in that one along with the ML armed Combat Squad of Scouts.  Ruin on my right with the 4+ cover had the Centurions, Hunter and the HB armed Sniper Scouts...  Joe's Iron Warriors lined up with his Land Raider taking his far Left, flanked by 2 Rhinos and the DNs.  Oblits to his Center and the Vindicator flanked by a Rhino to his Right.

Night Fighting on turn one so there was a limited amount of damage done by the Iron Warriors...  Mostly they drove forward, popped smoke and bunched up as they rolled toward me the bulk on his Left towards my objective (guarded by the Centurions).  On my turn, the Sternguard dropped in near the center, scattering to my Left and the Vindicator.  It was a rough turn for Chaos.  The Heavy Flamer hit one of the DNs and the Vindicator that it was covering the Rear Arc of...  Rolled a 6 followed by another o destroy it for First Blood.  The Combi Meltas slagged the DN.  Pedro dropped his Orbital Bombardment into the mess on the Right...  Hit the Land Raider and a Rhino.  Stripped a hull point from a Rhino and the Raider passed it's cover save...  Then the Centurions opened up...  The Raider died after failing 4 cover saves.  To be fair, Night Vision made them hard saves, but 4 dice, nothing higher than a 2 doomed it.  So, did a lot of damage, but the Heldrakes haven't shown up.

Turn 2, his Drakes came in.  Flew over and flamed one Sternguard Combat Squad, wiping it out.  The second offed the bulk of a Sniper Scout squad.  His Warlord and squad hoofed it toward my Objective and took a bunch of wild shots into my Centurions   Oblits Plasma and Power Fists killed off the second Sternguard Squad combined with other fire from random Marines...  So, not a good day to be a Sternguard, but they did what they had to.  On my turn, the MM armed Speeder and the Legion arrived.  They wound up killing the second DN, an Oblit and put some damage into some of the trailing elements...  Keeping him from fully engaging my DZ...  The Centurions erased the bulk of the Warlord's squad and split fire into a Rhino with the Las Cannon.  The Hunter hit a Drake, but the 5++ saved it.  Moved Pedro and Co up to block and bait them a bit...  Mostly worked, should have gotten them out as the Rhino lacking the Assault Vehicle rule hurts a unit that WANTS to Assault.

Turn 3, his Drakes continued their rampage...  Finished my Scouts and...  Well, the Thunderfire saved and that was about it...  Rolled the Hunter back to keep it out of Melta range from his Marines, so it took a Glance being outside of 6"...  He destroyed Pedro's Rhino, and the lads hunkered down to wait...  The Oblits shot then charged Legionnaires...  And we bounced...Not a lot of damage to either side. On my turn, the Hunter MISSED, but put a marker onto a Drake.  The DN actually put a hull point onto the other...   Centurions erased another squad, and...  Well, things were winding down as we killed each other off...

Turn 4, one Drake left the second finished off a squad of Scouts that had a survivor or two around, the Centurions ignored it.  He chased the Hunter and immobilized it, but it lived being more than 6" again...  On my turn I killed his Warlord, the missile hit the Drake and the Hunter fired again to finish it off...  The last Rhino of his finally died and my Honor Guard charged in and killed off a squad of Chaos Marines.  I think my Legion finally died, but they kept his Oblits out of action for most of the game.   I made a major error and hopped out and claimed his objective.  So, on turn 5 his Drake came back and killed them all.  ALMOST cost me the game, I should have kept them in the Vehicle knowing I had the final turn.  But at this point (Turn 5) I had the ONLY troops left in the 5 Bolter Scouts in the second Vehicle...  Well, with First Blood, Warlord I wrapped it up...

Legion did well.  Died slowly, but I think the Multi Melta will be their weapon of choice.  No Cover saves and AP1?  Yes Please.  Centurions were probably way too good.  Sternguard?  Good, but I doubt they got back their points directly.  For the first time though, I was not overly concerned about the Heldrakes.  They killed a LOT, but a lot of that was my fault for deploying overly aggressively and stupidly in the case of the Scouts.  In the end, "It Will Not Die" and the 5++ saved them.  I splashed one, almost the second one and by the 5th turn I had all of my AAA ready to go and was left mostly with things not concerned with AP 3...    So, the lessons learned were that I need to play less aggressively with the Scouts...  Might be time to bring a Rhino or two with Tactical Marines...

So, now what?

UMkay, got to thinking over the weekend and here's what I plan on testing next along with some random thoughts...

Legion of the Damned:  125 points gets me 5 of them, 15 points for the Plasma Cannon and 10 for a Melta?  All have the Ignore Cover rule for shooting, so they have AP 1 and 2 weapons allowing NO cover saves...  Later game or if I drop onto an Enemy gun emplacement, I can steal it...  Have to Deep Strike, so not 100% happy about that as I like the OPTION to Deep Strike, but getting to re-roll the scatter and I will likely have a beacon on the table in any case...  3+/3++ saves, cause Fear and are Fearless.  Oh, and Slow and Purposeful...  So, not ALL good, no overwatch or running, but can fire Heavies on the move or as I Deep Strike in.  So, 150 points of non Scoring Infantry...  Going for the Line-breaker or the big disruption that this sort of thing should cause dropping in on the Enemy causes, we'll see if it is 150 points worth or not...

So, 1850 list:

Pedro  185

Sternguard (Combis, H Flamers, SGT w/ LC, Drop Pod w/beacon) 380-390

Scout Squad (10, cloaks, 4 Snipers, HB, Bolters for the rest)  142
  Land Speeder Storm (HF)  45

Scout Squad (10, Cloaks, 4 Snipers, HB, Bolters for the rest) 142
  Land Speeder Storm (MM) 55

Honour Guard   85
  Rhino  35

Thunderfire Cannon 100 (1169)

Centurion Devastators (Scope, 2 Grav, 1 LC, ML all around)  290

Storm Talon Gunship (Las Cannon)  140

Leaving me with a Hunter (75) and Rifleman DN (120) and... 1769 points

I should probably bring more Troops, but if I Combat Squad, I already have 6 (small) Squads to score, one more is unlikely to make THAT much a difference, and the one extra Heavy/Special Weapon with 4 more Bolter armed Marines is just not that impressive to me I guess...

So, comparing the Marine book to the current crop of books out there...

Against the Grey Knights, I feel that I am more than a match for the currently fielded version of Coteaz and Henchmen with Dreadknights, etc...  The only things I have had issue with are the Vindicare Assassin...  The Psykers are annoying, but really not that big of a deal.  But you start getting to a situation where too many of the basic rules of the game are simply broken by individual models and that throws off game balance a LOT.  Picking targets, NO "Look Out Sir", AP1, armor penetration of 3+4d6 Rending, destroying Inv saves, wounding on 2+?  Too many rule exceptions in a single model.  Frankly ANY rule exception is too many if you have built the system correctly...  Perfect timing, Coteaz's squad firing to full effect against ALL units coming from Reserve?  A bit much, but a known thing so easily avoided.  Should change to Intercept, so a single shot/model at one thing, but guessing this changes in next edition of codex...

Against Necrons?  Still an issue dealing with so many fliers, but the Hunter, Rifleman And my own fliers help level the field.  Tank Hunter is huge on the Centurions and the Sternguard usually get first blood, so close game becomes something slightly in my favor...  Tough army, but by no means unbeatable I think.

Eldar?  So much Str 6/7 shooting...  Fast moving, but fragile.  Hunter is rightly feared by them...  Wraith Knight is a joke against Grav weaponry...  So, another one that is a hard fight but should be winnable...

Tau?  Probably the hardest so far...  Though the Riptide should hide from Centurions...  So much shooting, so many things that break or "modify" basic game rules...  :-)  but that has been written about a lot so...

Chaos...  Well, took longer to write this up and actually played last night.  Iron Warriors themed list against my Crimson Fists with our own Tech Marines...  Basic list above, we played Emperor's Will on the long deployment (short board edges were our end zones...).  He fielded an armor heavy list with a Land Raider with the Chaos Tech, Nurgle Oblits, two more basic Troop squads in Rhinos w/havoc launchers, vindicator and..  Oh, yeah...  2 Heldrakes.  For the first time in a LONG time I didn't feel completely outclassed though.  Hunter, Rifleman and Talon were all real threats.  I also had a bunch of 2+ armor around...  It was a bloody fight, but Sternguard got first blood before being wiped out by Heldrakes.  The drakes also killed off my sniper combat squads, but not a surprise.  Splashed one drake, chased the other off and still had all of my AAA ready for it when it came back...  Him Raider died to Centurions...  Night Vision and Tank Hunter make it fairly easy to tag any vehicles, though his not rolling higher than a 2 on his 4 cover saves (smoke) doomed the vehicle...  Made a mistake deploying bolter Scouts from their Speeder too soon, so only one combat squad survived when we called it...  Should have sat the other Squad on the other objective ready to deploy out to win as I went second...

So far the stars in my list are:

Centurion Devastator squad...  Erase a squad/turn, kill Vehicles, split fire and night vision...  Expensive points wise and REALLY bad models (my opinion as always), but insanely powerful on the field...

Thunderfire Cannon...  Barrage 4, Str 6, almost never cover saves, and reinforce terrain...  For 100 points...  Easy choice.

Hunter...  Surprisingly, it has performed quite well for me.  Against a GK Much force it was useless after the Storm Raven was splashed, or so I thought...  Still a Tank, so tank shock is an option, and you can still snap fire the missiles...  But mostly mobile terrain.  Still, so many skimmers and fliers that 70 points is not a bad investment...

Pedro's orbital barrage has been good, but I expect people to figure this one out soon... Would be far better for a CM on bike or in Terminator Armor to be able to move and still fire it, but turn one, best not be bunched up or I will make you pay...

And...  That's about it...  The Legion did well, so will I think make them a regular thing for my lists.  Scouts are still "eh" overall.  Will try Tactical Squads next time I think replacing one Scout squad or perhaps the honor guard...  Though, having those lads around is just REALLY nice...

Realized belatedly that the one other major conclusion I came to was that the Storm Raven is going to be my flier of choice I think...  I have the Dust model that makes a really nice Talon stand-in, but at 140 points?  Armor 11, 2 HP?  And only the 2 weapons, one of which MUST be the overpriced Assault Cannon?  I'll take the TL Multi Melta and Las Cannon, thank you...  Oh, AND 4 one shot Missiles at Str 8 AP 2 please...  Yea, not quite as good as my Fleshtearer version with the AP 1 missiles, but hey, for only 60 points more than the very much substandard Talon?  Seems a simple enough choice...  Just having a hard time fitting all the toys on the motorcycle...

Another game and thoughts...

So, played GK last night...  From memory here's what he brought:

Coteaz
6 Henchmen squads:

1. 6 Crusaders, 5 Death Cult Assassins
2. 2 Jokero and 3 Plasma Cannons
3 & 4. Chimera loaded out with Storm Bolters and Special Weapons
5 & 6. Razorbacks loaded out with small squads
2 Rifleman DNs
Dreadknight with sword and flamer
Vindicare Assassin
Storm Raven


I brought my Crimson Fists again
Pedro
Honor Guard in Rhino
Sternguard kitted out and in Drop Pod
2 Scout squads, full, 5 Snipers 1 ML 1 HB, cloaks and Land Speeder Storms
Hunter
Centurion Devastators (4, 3 Grav 1 LC and all missiles and split fire)
Thunderfire Cannon
Extra Techmarine
Storm Talon w/ LC
Rifleman DN

Pretty standard setup, played Big Guns on the diagonal deployment.  I had a strong point with the Thunderfire and Rifleman in  the upper levels and the Rhino w/ Pedro and the Hunter on the ground floor to use the Orbital Strike.  With so many vehicles on his side, his DZ was REALLY crowded.  He went first, but really didn't do much with night fighting and the fact I was hiding DEEP in enhanced cover (3+ for the ruins).  My turn one was pretty good, the Orbital Strike  and the Sternguard dropping in...  Killed one Chimera and immobilized one of the DNs deep in his DZ behind blocking terrain.  The Sternguard took a bunch of wounds off of the Knight who died to a Sniper the next turn...  First blood being VERY important these days and all.  Pretty brutal game overall but going second and making a LOT of cover saves meant things like the DN and Thunderfire lasted a long time.  Never did kill the Vindicare, but I I think I finally offed almost all of his Troops and both DNs.

Storm Raven was killed by the Hunter and Talon.  Turns out Storm Shields make excellent parachutes.  But the big HtH threat was nullified when they crashed and got shot out of existence.

The Thunderfire was brutal.  After the light Infantry got shot out of their transports, it basically killed a squad/turn.  Turn one I think it stripped some hull points in the parking lot...  Should have offed the Vindicare sooner though.

What to test next?  Surprisingly I think the Legion of the Damned...  They Deep Strike in, and they all ignore cover...  Oh, and they can get a Plasma Cannon with their Slow and Purposeful...  Not too expensive, but I think it fits well with my army play style...

Overall, I am really liking the Marine codex...  I think it will be a fun one o play for a long time...