Generic Legion @ 1850 for this week...

So, I couldn't decide between the Vigilator and the Siege Breaker to lead out the Lads, so I brought them both in this list...  Though I may well bring a Librarian in place of the Siege Breaker...  Same point cost.

Vigilator (Artificer Armor, Refractor Field)  115
Siege Breaker  95

Legion Breacher Siege Squad (20, 3 Graviton guns and Flamer, Artificer on SGT)  400
Legion Tactical Squad (20, Artificer and Combi Melta on SGT)  310
Legion Tactical Support Squad (10, Volkite Calviers, Artificer on SGT)  230
Legion Apothecaries (3, Artificer Armor, 1 w/ Augury Scanner) 180

Legion Spartan Assault Tank (Ceremite, Dozer) 320
Mortis DN (TL AC)  135
Rapier Weapon BTTY (Quad Mortar/Thudd Gun)  60


So, basically, the Breacher Squad loads up in the Spartan and rolls forward if needed.  Quad Mortar, Tac Squad and Support Squad castle up with the Vigilator leading out the Tacs for Sniper support.  Siege Breaker leads out the Support Squad to give them Tank Hunter.  Loads of Str 6 shooting, with Interceptor against Deep Strikers...  A bit light on AA, just the Mortis really being dedicated AAA.  I am also a bit concerned about the lack of real Heavy Weapons...

The other option is a Praetor leading out a few Squads of 10 in Proteus Class Land Raiders.  Breachers and Praetor ride in the Spartan.  Smaller numbers, but all in AV 14, loads of TL LC to shoot down something similar...

New Legion rules and potential lists...

So, looking over the new Legion stuff, not at all sure what Legion I will end up fielding, but suspect it will be my ancient Wolves…  Though they really did not have much to do with the Terra portion of the Heresy…  The rules for the Iron Hands are REALLY good, and should our local IH player (Ted) ever get back to playing, I think he will be pretty happy with how they play.  Looking like I just play a generic Legion for the time being.  So, what HQ do I lead them out with?

1.       Legion Praetor:  Essentially a Chapter Master, albeit without some of the current things that say, Pedro gets like the Orbital Bombardment and Honor Guard.  Though they do have the “Master of the Legion” rule which allows you to customize your Legion build through one of several optional “Rites of War”.  One is Armored Spearhead, opening up Land Raiders as Transports for every squad that could take a Rhino.  Another is Pride of the Legion making Terminators and Vet Squads Troops…  There ARE disadvantages to each, for example the Spearhead requires your hole army to be Mechanized, nothing NOT transported.  And additional Secondary VC’s for each if you lose all of what the bonus gives you.  Still, an excellent way I think to build out a force if you start with a vision for it firmly in mind from the beginning.  My test list of one has 3 Land Raiders and a Spartan.  Numerically small, but AV 14, immune to Melta and with 10 TL LC shots each turn to attempt to bring down bigger targets on a mobile platform seems a pretty decent start.  A LOT of armies simply cannot deal with so much AV 14, especially if you take the easy answer of “Melta for the Win” off the table for the most part.  The other Rites I could use to build a “Proto” BA or DA force with ease.  So, an interesting and varied choice which would allow me to tailor my force to whatever I feel like playing…

2.       Centurion upgraded to Consul:  There are a LOT more choices here.  This slot is the one where the Chaplain, Librarian, Master of the Forge, etc. all come from.  And others not seen since the RT era…  The Librarian is a safe choice for players familiar with the old standard Marine Librarian as an Army Leader…  Choosing your own Discipline means that ANY of them are open, I suspect Divination will be the most popular choice for most folks.  Not horribly expensive, but no particular advantages either I think.  Safe and steady.  I am leaning toward the Vigilator or the Siege Breaker myself as I think they fit my personal play style a lot more, and the Consul will essentially be my Avatar on the field based on my own Army experience…  Vigilator gives you a free “Sabotage” to hit an Enemy unit at the start of the game and is a Stealth guy with Sniper and the Sternguard type ammo for his Bolter.  I see him leading out a Tactical or Breacher Squad setting up in Cover and being just that damn stubborn to pull off of an objective.  The Siege Breaker gives/has Tank Hunter…  The obvious choice is to put him with a Tactical Support Squad with Volkite Caliver on each Trooper for the re-rolls against Vehicles.  Should be pretty rough against Light Tanks, etc…  Or with a Heavy Support section with Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles to pull Sky Marshall Duty.  Not seeing THAT many fliers and lacking Scoring status for the most part, hard to justify the cost…

So, those are the basic HQ choices…  I can either take the Land Raider overload or a more basic one to lead out the lads… 

For Troops, I am liking the Breacher Siege Squads more and more.  Expensive, yes, but they all have an Invulnerable save and get to re-roll saves against Templates and Blasts.  Looking at the Iron Hands rules from the Massacre book, these would be my line Squads without question.  Inv save and a 6+ FnP roll on basic Troops, and LR or LR Spartan for Transports?  The Spartan has a carry capacity of 25, so Medics and other IC have room to join the Squad for a stupid huge Squad…  Even without the IH rules, the Breachers with an attached Medic will I think be an annoyingly difficult to remove Squad for shorter games like in a Tournament.  And given that they are a basic Troop choice for one of my 2 minimum required ones…

The Basic Tactical Squad is interesting, but I am not 100% sure I like fielding just a mass of Marines armed only with Bolters.  The lack of the Special/Heavy weapons in the Squad are a major concern for me.  In an Armored Spearhead, they are just Panzer Grenadiers riding in the Proteus Class Raider jumping out at the end of the assault to claim objectives or keep the Tanks from being swarmed I guess…  They are in my initial test armies, but I think my concerns about their viability are valid…  Though, arming them like my old Grey Hunters with the rifle, pistol, and sword means they are at least “kind of” Assault Squads if I need them to be.  A unit of 20 with Apothecary and maybe the Sniper leader would be interesting I think.  Stubborn defense if they start/end up in a Ruin or other Area terrain camping on an Objective.

Speaking of the Apothecaries, I am thinking that every Squad that is on foot or mounted in a LR Spartan will have one…  Points/slots permitting of course.  NOT ICs like the BA ones, but assigned out like Wolf Guard.  So, planning is required, but it just means I have to be more careful during the list building stage of the game.  An additional Character with potentially Artificer Armor and maybe a Power Weapon or Augury Scanner who also grants the 5+ FnP roll?  Yes, please.

Otherwise, I am looking at the second book (“Horus Heresy Book 2 – Massacre”), and finding that if I were to go into the Iron Hands I would be pretty well set…  I think they pretty much work the way I’d like the Legion Marines to work.  Shoot like you are voting in Chicago, early and often.  But I think I will stay with my ancient Space Wolves at least until I see what this iteration of the history is…  As I was familiar with the old Wolves, I am hoping that at the least they do not vary TOO much from the regular Legions.  So far it is just a different unit or two, the Primarch with a few characters and maybe a different Rite of War…  So basically as I start building now, perhaps I will be OK moving it over to Wolves when they finally appear in the books.  Looking at 3-4 new Legions/year it might well be some time before they DO show up.  But the Mortis DN and the Contemptor Mortis are both there for all Legions to use.  135 points for the TL AC version, so 15 points more than a new standard DN with the same armament.  15 points for the Targeting Array giving Intercept and Skyfire during your turn and the opponent’s turn if you do not move.  Um, YES PLEASE!  A reliable AA weapon that can actually do a lot more than AA I think.  AP 4 is kind of annoying, but reliably putting 3-4 Str 7 hits on a target is a solid ability.  ALMOST at the point of putting on 2 x TL Las Cannon just for the ability to put 2 Str 9 AP 2 hits out there.  ROF is a bit low for the 155 points, but the better chance of splashing fliers might well be worth it.  But for now I HAVE several DNs with the TL AC, including one of the Dust walkers that I am repainting for my Crimson Fists…  I could realistically put together another 3-4 DNs with the TL AC if I really felt the need, but not really sure it is worth it…  So, the Mortis comes with my Legion forces like my DA forces…

There IS a Flier in the book in the Fast Attack section.  A Lightning variant.  Not sure, base model is cheap(ish), and there are 4 hard points to add custom weapon loadouts…  Still, a 2 HP AV 11 flier starting at 135 points?  20 points buys you TL AC or TL Multi Laser to supplement the TL Las Cannon, so fully outfitted for Air Superiority missions I’d snag 2-3 (probably 3) more weapons bringing it to 195 points for a very fragile Flier…  The Storm Raven is 200, has Split Fire and some pretty good weapons to go along with its Transport and Assault Vehicle roles…  Depends a lot on who hits the field first, but overall I’d say the Raven will win a lot more dogfights as its weapons have to roll well below average to Glance/Penetrate…  So, certainly NOT something I’ll be rushing out to field I think.  Neat, but…

The other units in the book are all fairly neat, but things like the Drop Pod variants seem very specifically focused.  They DID fix the stupid “Deathwind” one though.  It is expensive, but it is 5 Missile Launchers each with its own Machine Spirit so it can fire at different targets and in addition to other weapons firing, etc…  Expensive, but potentially a problem that cannot be lightly ignored on the other side of the table…  And the new version of the Lucius Class Pod…  Again, “Neat”, but unless I do a Drop Army, not of much use…  Oh, but you CAN go directly into Assault from Deep Strike with it, so potentially something to surprise and scare a lot of armies, especially if you go first… 

But options abound…  Got a game scheduled against the Joe next week assuming I make it through the nuclear stress testing Monday morning…  Getting old apparently, and all the damage from all the stupid things I have done seems to be catching up J…  But, one of the reasons I took the lower pay but stable job here at the University was the excellent Health Insurance, so now that looks like a good choice on my part…

Ancient Comm Mini

Looking over at James Wappel's amazing Imperial Fists Command Group (and a post of his previous to that), I recognized one of my ancient RT era lads as something Forge World has redone.  And MUCH better I might add, though as the old Marines go, this was not really a BAD one...  Just clearly one that I never had much use for as I never even primed it in all the years it has been in the Basement of Doom :-)

So, not bad and as I eventually choose my 30K Legion, something for me to paint up in the correct colors, but still have to say the FW minis they are coming out with are amazing...  :-)  Will probably have to sell off a rifle or three to start buying more of the resin...

Legion Lists for next week

Looking like I'll be breaking out my ancient plastic MK VI Armor lads next week...  Sadly, I DO have enough I think to field a full Legion Army, albeit in the various Camo patterns I used back then when I painted them up in the late 80's...

So far, up in the air with respect to who I will have lead out the army...  Librarians getting to simply choose a discipline?  So Divination perhaps?  The Praetor is awesome as well though...  And Siege Breaker for Tank Hunter?  Just so many things I could go with...  Librarian is a safe choice, and probably where I'll start.  I need to learn how to use them in any case.

Looking at the number of Land Raiders I can field as Transports...  Kind of imposing really.  Especially as I can pay the extra points to make them immune to Melta fire...  The Spartan with the transport capacity of 25 means I can carry either a full Terminator Squad or a stupid large 20 man Tactical Squad or Breacher Squad with attached Medics (Apothecary) and say, a Librarian or the like...  In an Assault Vehicle with a stupid number of Marines rolling out with FnP, shooting attacks, etc...  Yes, REALLY high point cost for the Deathstar, but Scoring, hard to kill and should do a lot of damage...

Thinking that a 3 Land Raider spearhead will be extremely difficult for a lot of folks to deal with locally at least...  Not entirely convinced that I could easily take on a Screamer Star or an overload of MC's, but...  Lots of Twin Linked Las Cannon around, and my Terminators will have their 4++, and the lads will go down fighting so it will I think at the least be fun to play out...

30K Marne Legion armies viable in a modern high powered environment?

I think so.  The more I look over it and the more I piece together what I could actually field myself the more impressed I am with what Forgeworld has come up with here.  Comparing it to all of the current Marine Codices I find a LOT more options.  5 ACTUAL Troop choices AND Terminators are always scoring.  Yes, 3 of the Troops choices are "support" and so cannot be used to fulfill your mandatory Troop sections, but so many options...  And no silly hoops to jump through to unlock options.  Looking at Blood Angels, while they have lots of Troop options, really only 3 are Scoring and so viable.  2 can never Score, and thus are basically Elites, and mostly useless in 6th Edition.  DA and normal Marines CAN unlock other things as Troops, but basically, Tactical and Scout Squads are it...  With the growth of "Ignore Cover", Scouts are a difficult choice from a survivability standpoint...  Tactical Squads are "Eh" at best.  4's across the board for stats and 3+ armor are nothing special these days, and the Bolter is extremely substandard.  Not enough Heavy Weapons in the Troop sections, not hugely mobile and not particularly survivable.

Looking at the Legion, I have options for  things like a Tactical Support Squad with up to 10 guys, 9 armed with Meltas, Plasmas, or Rotor Cannons or a Volkite Calvier.  The Calvier is a 30" range Str 6 Heavy 2 with the potential for extra Wounds...  But basically, 30" range Str 6 shooting :-)...   Troops, and the Augury Scanner is cheap...  Allows the use of Rapid Fire or Heavy Weapons as Interceptors against Deep Strikers...  So, that could be brutal.

Almost every SGT can be upgraded to Artificer Armor, and most line squads can be up to 20 members...  Things like the BA Medics are standard things.  So 20 FnP Marines should be able to hold out a while...  NOT cheap, but again, something that you can see in a more limited and limiting fashion in modern (ish) codices...  And the Spartan Class Raider can carry 25 models, so the FULL Squad along with ICs...

I guess THAT is the frustrating thing about the 30K vs 40K comparisons...  Using just the basic Legion list as a basis for a list as I want to field it, I can actually make just about ANY of the modern Marine based armies.  And better I think.  Honestly, I think I can field a Legion list that can go toe to toe against the Tau/Eldar silliness that is currently dominating the Internet/Tournament scene...  Scoring Terminators, cheaper Land Raiders, which CAN be immune to Melta and can be Dedicated Transports...  So, no new stuff, and perhaps having a difficult time with an overload of Fliers.  OTOH, the Fliers will likely have a hard time dealing with the Land Raiders.

:-)  Guess I'll break out the 3 ancient Land Raiders and see what the Legion can do this week...  Glad the old Army Builder program had the Heresy stuff in it these days...

Considering a 30K Army... Dammit :-)

Been reading more and more of the Horus Heresy Betrayal book and seeing the truly amazing resin minis coming out of Forgeworld...  Looking at my own actual Pre-Heresy stuff and how very primitive those pieces look in comparison?  Yeah, and the rules for the Legions are actually quite good.  Haven't played them yet, but they look balanced and fun to play...  While staying powerful enough to at least have a chance against the current top tier lists I think.  The basic Legion lists alone are ~ 60 pages, and that is just the generic stuff, the specific Legions are more...  But the first book really only has Traitor Legions which I will not play.  Second book has Salamanders and Iron Hands, neither of which are ones I am much interested in for Loyalists...  So, guess I start looking at redoing my ancient Wolves or Imperial Fists perhaps as the Crimson Fists did not exist at that time.

So, I guess I start trading for and picking up some of the more interesting "ancient" Armors...  I have a set of "Breacher Siege Squad" lads coming to become a Command Squad with Storm Shields in 40K, but guessing that they will just be the first group...  Breachers are Troops in the 30K lists, but unit starts at 10 men...  Assault Squads are also Troops...  Seems weird to me that Forgeworld can write such amazingly balanced and frankly good Army Books and GW comes out with silliness and stupidity in the form of the $50 DA book that was DoA due to the Heldrakes and massed fliers initially seen in 6th edition...  Damn shame, and I have to admit that this causes me a fair bit of concern for the long term viability of the game.

Crimson Fists vs IG

Mkay, going mostly from memory, I played against Marc last evening, 1850 points he brought his Armored IG, I had my CF, testing some different stuff...

He fielded:

Lord Commissar (2 Plasma Pistols)
Vendetta (3 TL LC, 2 HB)
Vulture (I think, FW flier, TL Punisher Gatling Cannon, HB)
2 Leman Russ w/ Punisher, MM sponsons and LC hull mount
Leman Russ Exterminator (Las Cannon)
Vet Squad (Plasmas, Carapice, in a Chimera)
Vet Squad (Meltas, Plasma?  Rode in Vendetta w/ Commissar)
Bane Wolf (MM, Chem flamer)
Line PLT, 3 squads, Commissar


I fielded:
CPT on bike w/Primarch's bolter
Command Squad on bikes w/melta, 3 Grav guns and a Medic
Bike Squad w/MM, 2 Grav guns full squad
2 Scout Squads, cloaks, bolters, snipers, etc...  2 Speeder Storms, 1 MM, 1 HF
Centurion Devastator Squad w/2 Grav Cannon, missiles and split fire
Hunter
Legion of the Damned
Storm Raven
Rifleman DN
Everything that could combat squad, did.  DN rode in the Raven, Bolter Scouts in Storms flanked

So, he got first turn...  Set up his 2 Punisher tanks on his left flank, Executioner on far right. Line PLT in the center in a building.  I sent my Centurions to my left opposite his Exterminator.  Scouts set up in same building and the far Right flank.  Had to start the Bike Squads behind cover as well.  Reserved the Command Squad and Hunter along with the Legion, Raven and Storms.  First turn was my Scouts weathering a LOT of punisher shooting along the way...  My turn was the Devastators moving up and wrecking the Chimeras (well, one Chimera and the Bane Wolf) for First Blood.

His Warlord Trait was -1 to my Reserve rolls...  So while his fliers came in and helped him collapse my Right flank by killing off the few remaining Scouts there and the bulk of my Centurions, I only had my Hunter come in.  My Bike Squads survived by making lots of cover/Armor saves, but are cut down to only a few members each.  I charge one Bike Squad into his Vets and hope for the best...  The other lasts until next turn, but...  So, lots of things die on both side, but I have more reserves so while the board looks sparse for me...  I have to get my lads to the field and let them go...

Turn 3, I have 2 Sniper Scouts alive hiding in a Ruin.  I think mostly because we both forgot about them.  This turn I get the bulk of my Reserves, all but one Scout Speeder (MM one) arrive and it starts to look good for the Marines.  The Storm Raven drops the Rifleman off on the way in, then proceeds to fire at the Punisher Tanks...  Killed one Tank and damages the other.  The Rifleman opens up on the last Chimera and kills it.  LoD and Scout Speeder damage the Executioner.  Last Biker kills off his Vets and then retreats...  To die next turn, but...

Turn 4, his damaged Vendetta drops out the Commissar's squad...  The kill off a the few remaining Bikers hanging around and I think somewhere along the line my Centurions die to the massed fire...  The Storm Raven and Scout Speeders I think off his now hovering Fliers...  To be fair, I think it would not have really mattered had they been Hovering or Flying as the Raven can target 2 with it's array of Vehicle killing weapons and almost guarantee splashing one and potentially both.  Coming in late left his Fliers exposed to a Riposte from the Claymore that is a Storm Raven.  Was good that his lads deployed from the Transport else when I splash the Vendetta, most of them die.  Pretty sure my LoD and remaining bikes in his DZ are killed, but my Scouts and a few other things shoot in and kill off his PCS.

Turn 5 is mostly cleanup, he moves to cover the objective, I shoot him off of it and consolidate.  He still has a fair number of lads in his Platoon, but Las Guns are not going to slow down my Command Squad set to crash in and deal with them in HtH...  After unloading the rest of my army into them.  I do not control the Objective at my Scouts are either in his DZ or have been forgotten and are camping out with a nice lunch started in the original Ruin.  Raven kills off his last Tank that has just vaporized my Rifleman...  Now, the Raven is completely out of real targets as MM/LC are overkill against IG Grunts, but had we continued, so be it... Over the course of 2 more turns I COULD have gotten the Objective as the one Combat Squad with a Storm woula have been able to Turbo Boost over there and deploy onto it the next turn.  Would have been easier to just kill off the remainder of the Platoon though I think...

So, the stars for his side?  Vulture with the huge number of shots on Strafing...  His Punishers were also quite good, but honestly easier for me to take down.  Their weapons have too short a range to NOT play aggressively and so they tend to move beyond their own Support elements and die.  His PCS was also quite good, though I think 2 more Flamers might have been good there.  They played "Linebacker" and dealt with Deep Strikers coming in.  Heavy Weapons in the Line Platoon would have been huge, as it was I could safely ignore that element and deal with the rest.  But they did last the game...

Stars for me?  Bikes are actually quite deadly now...  Making them Troops and Combat Squads means I can saturate the field in Scoring units...  They did well.  The Raven was amazing.  The Rifleman, not so much, but...  LoD was "Eh" at best I think.  Scouts on LS Storms were really quite good.  Flanking and rolling in with a bunch of Bolters and a Heavy Bolter re-rolling 1's to hit is nice...  And...  Well, the CPT did well, and the Grav weapons on bikes were nice, but highly situational I think.  Hunter paid for itself bringing down the then Skimming Flier, and bringing it in from Reserve will I think be SOP henceforth...   Overall the Army did well, would have been better as a White Scar force, but...