Thinking about fielding my Wolves, so I snagged the January FAQ (latest for them)... The one change is that if a Wolf Scout unit has an IC OR an assigned Wolf Guard Pack Leader, they lose the ability to go behind enemy lines. Understandable if it is the IC, this was the case in the previous edition, but now the WGPL? Wow, it wasn't enough to take away the ability to go to Assault and actually use the Melta bombs they can buy or be safe briefly and give every army out there the ability to probably kill 3-4 of them with the Quad Guns firing Interceptor as the Wolves have NO BLOODY FLIERS of their own. Oh, we CAN get an ace :-) For all the fliers we do not have... All I can say is wow. GW had an excellent opportunity with the "Death From the Skies" book to get fliers out to all the armies and some form of AA to the armies lacking it but instead we get a $37 FAQ adding the Fliers to SOME armies, but not fixing anything really and being really a disappointment overall for the players out here.
So, no Fliers, no AAA, neutered Wolf Scouts and Wolf Guard... Hmmm, wonder how well the Wolves will do in our local environment? Not really. No defense whatever against the Heldrake or tank lines I see across the table, no really compelling reason to field them really... A bit of a caffeine inspired rant as I am snowed in, but really kind of confusing and disappointing...
So the Wolves need a flier? Really? Like they need it?
ReplyDeleteThey have the best psker/anti-psyker in the game with Rune Priests-cheap, multiples and a +4 stop all on powers not this 6+ crap,.
Grey Hunters are the best bang for the buck troops-counter-attack, all the Marine benefites, pistol/weapon/bolter, free assault weapon in 10 man squad.
Long Fangs are still the a fantastic heavy support- up to 5 heavy weapons, split fire and cheap guns.
Thunder Wolves are still a great big pain even if assault has diminished a bit htis edition-multiwound, multi-attack, toughness 5 and get in the enemy face fast.
Then throw in Wolf Guard that rock as upgrades or a unit. Your Scouts come in where you want them too 90% of the tim, and you even have fantastic special characters.
Wolves need a flier like another hole in the face! Sounds like sour grapes here.
"Oh my army can't have a plane."
They don't need it.
Sorry, but I hear this all the time at our locale. Wolves don't understand how well they have it. Probably never will until they get a Skywolf, Thunder chopper or other similar named plane.
Steve
Oh, I agree the Rune Priests are the best Psy defense any Marine army has... Neat, but perhaps we just do not see enough magic/Psychers here to really make it worth it's while. (hint: Necons and IG are really popular)
ReplyDeleteGrey Hunters are good... Shame the Drop Pods are not able to bring them at full strength with the detailed off "Squad Leader"... LD 8 isn't really a guarantee for me... Marines in the open or even relying on cover these days just die to the swarms of Heldrakes in the skies...
Fangs are "eh"... Maybe "Eh +/bordering on good"... Not really any ablative wounds, so the first thing to get flown over/flamed... Missile Launchers are still OK, but against a decent opponent, it is either not enough against the AV 14 Russ hulls (or 13 for the Cron chariots/whatever) or able to hit the fliers... Yes, I can run a Rune Priest and take Divination and hope they escape notice long enough to try to roll lots of 6's... Maybe, but not against someone who knows what they are doing. I'll still use them of course, but honestly against the locals if they survive to Turn 3, something has gone wrong for the other side of the table... Perhaps I am simply not bringing the 3 full squads, but unfortunately we are playing at much lower point levels limiting that too much...
Scouts, if I upgrade with a WG Pack leader lose "Behind Enemy Lines", so the single Melta gun and perhaps a Melta Bomb thrown the turn they arrive? Now the 100+ point squad MIGHT kill a single tank before being shot out of existence, assuming poor deployment on the part of the opponent...
Thunder Wolves? Expensive, as you mentioned Assault is not so good these days... Mean time they have to try to tank a metric crapton of Str 7 shooting from the fliers they have 0 chance of doing anything against? The Str 10 AP 1 line of death seems a bad thing to get caught by as well... Or just the Las Cannon/Melta sponsons with the LR's main gun still there to put the potential 4th "Did you buy them all Storm Shields" save on the lads... Of course the old standard "Melta Vet" squad in a Chimera is still viable and seen everywhere...
Just curious, what do your local players do against the Necron/CSM armies, or even the IG tank lines? Wolves as I see it are completely outclassed, and as this has become the standard "I'm here to win the Tournament" armies... Maybe I'm just missing something vital, but I just don't see this as a particularly fun match up... With the IG, I can at least try to outlast them and kill off their few "Troops" even if I can do very little against the AV 14 wall...
Marine leadership is a joke. They never really flee and can't be swept. Who cares what their leadership is.
ReplyDeleteNecron fliers are tough, but you ignore them and kill the robots. Not many bodies on the ground and their transport planes guns are AP-. We focus on killin the bots and their fliers don't do too much. Especially being off the board every other turn. Play the mission and you usually come out ahead.
Helldrakes suck and are pretty much taboo here. One guy ran three of them every game for a awhile and we just stopped playing him. He has since changed his list to fit the mood of the locale. The Helldrake sucks to play against and every player should know that. Taking them is legal, but a dick move if they bring more than one. The Chaos codex was written to sell that model.
Armor 14 fronts are bad, but they are not armor 14 everywhere. Move and set up side shots. Melta scouts walk in and pop a tank in the butt. Hell they can even toss a krak grenade along with the melta gun shot. They don't need a attached leader.
Drop Pods ruin guard gunlines as do Scouts. The 10 man Hunters and two flamers roast those puny humans all bunched up. Yeah flamers! Two pods of those to fall near a guard line and watch those blob squads burn!
We have a ton of vehicle players still. Rhinos are not as bad as everyone thinks. Especailly, with movement being very key now.Yes they blow up easy, but they always did. Plus it is still hard to stop 4 of them a turn. Drop pods are big again too and can ereall screw with the low model Necron flier full armies and help get a lot of early mission points, first blood linebreaker, shit like that.
Rune Priest and divination is awesome sauce. Don't overlook the power of guide. You know that from playing Eldar right? Let the fools shoot the thunderwolves to death. they are tough and made to be that big distraction. While they focus there you move and score with the troops. Simple stuff there. Wolves outclassed? Wow! Never have ever heard that. Sounds like your tactics and local players are the problem.
Steve
Guess I am seeing the "net list" of CSM/Necron here as a few of the locals run it as their tournament list... Ignoring the Cron flier is not a realistic option, get to see a LOT of Tesla fire inbound for the Str 7 shooting... Almost no Gauss weaponry here, guess the gamblers looking for the exploding 6's :-)
ReplyDeleteIf I were only facing 1-3 fliers, and we were playing on small enough tables that it was hard to keep them on the table it wouldn't be a big deal... It's the 4-5 Necron fliers with the 1-22 Heldrakes that is just a killer. Yes, not so many bodies on the table, but the Cron transports can place them wherever they really want with almost no risk, even should the flier be shot down... The Drakes? Yeah, slightly overpowered in groups...
Gun lines, not really Infantry... Usually at least 4 Russ hulls screened by Chimeras full of Melta Vets... I have used the Drop Pods with other armies (Fleshtearers and Crimson Fists) and the Sternguard do a number on the tank wall... Just kind of a rock/paper/scissors thing... 1-2 Melta shots/unit has potential, but in the long run I cannot count on that to deal with vehicles... As you said, Rhinos/Razorbacks are not bad overall... Just seeing the LR Vanquisher (? The long range AT shot, effectively a 72" range Melta shot with armor bane, AP 1, Str 8) here a lot... Rhino hulls simply do not last long against that...
If your local environment limits the Drakes, that's all well and good, but we are playing our leagues across 2 venues and a number of us are gearing up or were for regional tournament play... There, well guessing the cookie cutter armies will be doing well... Locally, we really don't have such restraint :-)... Overall a fun group to play with though, no one USUALLY brings the uber-cheese without warning the other player outside of tournaments... And I DO have a few options for armies :-) I am just thinking it has been a LONG time since my Spartan class LR, Whirlwind and MK I Predator has hit the field for my Wolves... And like I said, just starting the repainting of my first army... I'll likely field the lads in this league...
Well if you play quasi-tourney all the time then you fall into that mode and become another of those guys. You bring the net list and annoying combos because you have to. It one of those can't be part of the problem be part of the solution things. You either go with the local or rail against it. What matters more toy you? The game or winning? That is for you to decide.
ReplyDeleteRuss Vanquishers? Really? A one shot BS 3 gun is a bane in your area? I'd fear any pattern of Russ more. Guess you have the most accurate guardsmen ever in your area. So kill the Chimeras and force him to walk to objectives. Let the Vanquishers shoot that anti-tank shot at squads of Marines. it might kill a guy! WAll in his tanks with empty drop pods and run your guys to objectives. Force him to move and counter. There are ways around all this. It is a war game. Stuff is going to die. You can't save every model.
Necrons/Chaos and that many planes means not that many bodies on the ground turn one. Have seen this crap before and have used full drop pod lists neuter it. 4 pods in first turn strip away the min-sized units. Fliers come in do some stuff and then go away. Following turn strip more bodies away. Have even beat a necron army due to no models on the board this way. Fliers all in reserve turn 5 and no necrons on the board. A great game event that this guy didn't think could happen.
We don't limit models and armies, our area just knows what this game is. Everyone knows what armies are fun to play and play against. Certain builds are just dick moves to win. Everyone knows it even the guys playing them.
Can't help your area, but complaining about a great army that has no need of a plane, and some how needs one is not the way. Thinking all Wolf squads need Wolf guard is not a thing either. The Shall Know No Fear rule makes Marine leadership, moral and losing combat a joke. They never run, can't be swept and if they run they can regroup stop, move and go again. 8 is bad? Well 9 is so much better? Everyone brings planes well deal or ignore are your options. Play the mission, change tactics. Gun and tank lines have always been there for guard. Beating them now is no different than beating them then. You can't make a list to beat every army. Stop trying. It will never happen.
End of the day is it for fun or to win that you play.
Steve
The LR Vanquisher with the new FAQ making them "Heavy" gives them the 6" move and ability to fire all 4 of their heavy AT shots/turn... Yes, the MM are only 24" range, so between 24 and 48" only 2 shots each... But most games are starting ~24-30" apart, so for our purposes assume 4 shots each on the squadron of 2... Pretty good odds to shoot you out of your transport, likely causing the pin check... That's where the LD 8 is hurting me IMO... Seeing a lot of Arty, Melta and Snipers locally I guess. So, typically seeing that LR over most of the other ones, though Pask riding the variant with the heavy 4 Autocannon turret is popular as well (BS 4 Tank Hunter, so effectively Str 8...)
ReplyDeleteYes, I've seen Necrons lose because they had nothing on the table in the early stages when they were foolish and tried to runn an almost all flier army... But making a pretty solid "air force" runs ~600 points, leaving the other 2/3 of the points to take things like Destroyer Lords in a unit of Wraiths, Large units of whatever... Chariots, etc... So, going all Drop Pod or mostly Pod would probably do well there occasionally then lose if I do not get player 1 against Grey Knights... Rock/paper/scissors with 2 of the better armies out there. So, less variety on the field overall. Guess that is my biggest complaint really... There are a handful of really problematic things that greatly affect the game and better choices of things to bring against them... Overall the 6th ed codexes are pretty decent with the major exception being the Heldrake for CSM... DA have a few fun builds, but overpay for fliers and AAA... Still fun to play. Haven't gone up against much from the new Chaos book, only a few players locally... Necrons in combination with other books seems to be more the problem, followed a bit by IG with their tanks and fliers getting big boosts... :-) Yeah, mostly the fliers which were vastly under-costed as skimmers...
The fun/win thing is a good idea, problem being when there is money on the table (like in a tournament), then anyone running a "to win" list has a serious and likely insurmountable advantage for the rest of the field... Most likely a game problem, as 40K seems poorly suited for competitive play, but it's what we have... 'course just my opinion, it's really just a game at the end of the day :-)
I agree that the wolves have taken a big hit. I played them for 2 years competitively and haven't found a way to fit them in to 6th edition. They fall just short in most areas. Unless you want to lay the boring blobs of doom with rune priests....
ReplyDeleteCan't take to many transports or you auto lost killpoints...TW really aren't that viable right now. I have 11 of them and have tried! I found a fun list with BA/SW but the TWC just die so fast with everyone else changing to more shooty armies. 5th enables us as SW players to be able to bounce off medium to low firepower. High firepower and high rate of fire kill TWC. autocannons...str 5 storm bolters, tesla, etc.
So you are right in my opinion. How do we get them to compete again? Something I have been contemplating for months now. Also the ability to only have 6 scoring units is an issue. Now allies then would be that option..