Legion review and comparing it to 40K...

Well, played against a 40K Marine force with my Armored Spearhead last evening...  Wound up losing, but it was a fairly close fight.  Made my one critical error when facing a Chapter Master...  Orbital Strike against a tightly packed Breacher Squad meant I lost my Tech and 9 of the line troopers...  Forgot about that, and it cost me dearly.  That Squad SHOULD have cleared out the center.  They DID take down the Terminators, but they should have done so much more against what amounts to just a bunch of Power Armored bodies in Bolter range.  So, the 3 Squad force at 1850 was unsuccessful in an Objective based game.  DID lose one Land Raider and the Terminators it was transporting.  Ironically, the last Cataphract died in the explosion from a Rhino he tore up with his Chain Fist...

Kind of brings up the point of irritation for me...  NOT with his specific army at all.  James' force was a fairly "friendly" force based around Ultramarines using mostly Tactical and Devastator Squads with Salamander Allies.  So, essentially, lots of 3+ save bodies.  Dies horribly to Heldrake spam, but not really an issue locally at least.  More the broader picture.  The fact that Allies allow you to take a modified and likely superior FOC.  And being able to ally with yourself to gain the extra slots just seems inherently unbalanced.  Yes, everyone CAN take Allies.  Just annoying that I feel penalized by taking a basic, traditional force.  This modified FOC I think is a major unbalancing factor in the Tournament scene.  Seeing a lot of the armies bringing 3-4 of the big MC things to win.  Given the limited environment and time constraints, those armies will do well if their Troops are fairly resilient or say, their Transports are.    Some of the armies that the big MC types would I think have a harder time taking down are things like the massed Infantry/Hordes...  Not viable to play those armies in a timed event though.

I don't know.  Looking ahead I have to admit to thinking that I won't bother trying to get a team together to go to Adepticon.  A lot will depend on the FAQ that the TOs there provide.  But right now, the Eldar Wave Serpents spam on the Skyshield seems to be something nigh unbeatable.  Put enough up there and you are unassailable in Assault, have a 3+ cover save that goes to 2+ with the Holo Fields and against the few things that may remove the Cover save?  Oh, yeah a 4++...  Still looking at the RAW, and the rules for no cover save weapons specify "wounds", so strictly speaking it does NOT apply to Vehicles...

So, got the Cataphracts assembled and starting to test out a paint scheme.  Going with the Pre-Heresy Wolves...  Will have to post a pic when I remember to take my phone downstairs...  Have to say I like the way they are coming together...

Next Week's Legion list

So, looking at what I've learned from last week...  Here's what I intend to field next week:

1850 Pts - ~ Horus Heresy (THH1) Army                                       1850 Legion 2

Unit Name                       ##  WS   BS   St   To   Wo   In    At   Ld  Save     Cost

Legion Praetor (HQ)             1    6    5   4/5   4    3    5    4    10 2+/5++     135
                               Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Master
                               of the Legion; #Artificer Armour; #Frag Grenades;
                               #Krak Grenades; Refractor Field; Rite of War:
                               Armoured Spearhead; Bolt Pistol (x1); Paragon
                               Blade; Warlord

Forge Lord (Legion Centurion)   1    5    5   4/8   4    2   5/1  3/4   9    2+       105
                               Independent Character; Legiones Astartes; Consul;
                               Battlesmith; #Frag Grenades; #Krak Grenades;
                               #Artificer Armour; Rad Grenades; Bolt Pistol
                               (x1); Charnabal Sabre; Servo-arm

Legion Breacher Siege Squad (T  19   4    4    4    4    1    4    1    8  3+/6++     395
                               Legiones Astartes; Hardened Armour; #Boarding
                               Shield; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol (x19); Bolter
                               (x15); Flamer (x3); Graviton Gun (x1); Frag
                               Grenades; Krak Grenades
  Legion Sergeant               1    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    9  2+/6++   [160]
                               (character); #Boarding Shield; Artificer Armour;
                               Bolter; Lightning Claw

Legion Tactical Squad (Troops)  9    4    4    4    4    1    4   1/2   8    3+       390
                               Legiones Astartes; Fury of the Legion; Power
                               Armour; Chainsword; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter
                               (x9); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
  Legion Tactical Sergeant      1    4    4    4    4    1    4   2/3   9    2+      [82]
                               (character); Artificer Armour; Chainsword; Power
                               Weapon (x1); Bolt Pistol
  Legion Proteus                1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 4          [200]
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 10; Access Points: 2;
                               #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; #Machine Spirit;
                               TL Lascannon Sponsons (x2)

Legion Apothecary (Elites)      1    4    4    4    4    1    4   1/2   8    2+        70
                               (character); Legiones Astartes; #Narthecium;
                               Augury Scanner; Artificer Armour; Bolt Pistol;
                               Power Sword; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Legion Spartan Assault Tank (H  1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 5            315
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 25; Access Points: 3;
                               Assault Vehicle; #Machine Spirit; #Extra Armour;
                               #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers; Armoured
                               Ceremite; TL Heavy Bolters; Quad Lascannon
                               Sponsons (x2)

Legion Terminator Squad (Elite  4    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    8  2+/4++     440
                               Legiones Astartes; Implacable Advance; Prototype
                               Weaponry; #Cataphractii TDA; Power Weapon (x4);
                               Combi-Bolter (x3); Reaper Autocannon (x1)
  Legion Terminator Sergeant    1    4    4    4    4    1    4    2    9  2+/4++    [55]
                               #Cataphractii TDA; Combi-Bolter; Power Weapon
                               (x1)
  Legion Phobos                 1  BS: 4 Front: 14 Side: 14 Rear: 14 HP: 4          [250]
                               Vehicle (Tank); Capacity: 10; Access Points: 3;
                               Assault Vehicle; #Searchlight; #Smoke Launchers;
                               #Machine Spirit; TL Lascannon Sponsons (x2)

  Models in Army: 41
 

So, a much smaller force...  One ancient Land Raider for the Tac Squad to go forth and camp.  Did find out that the Proteus Class LR lacks the Assault Vehicle rule, so the lads woll not get out and charge into Assault...  But, not really the plan for them.  The whole army is Scoring, at least all 3 Squads...  And The big Siege Breacher Squad with FnP, Flamers, Defensive Grenades, Invulnerable Saves, Rad Grenades and 2 decent HtH monsters hidden in there?  Should be a PITA to remove from the field once they get out of the Spartan.

So, nothing subtle, just the Spartan flanked by the other 2 Land Raiders rolling up the field.  8 TL Las Cannon shots, each Vehicle with Machine Spirit so the shots can be spread out a bit...  Less concerned about Fliers or big MCs...  Think they will have a hard time removing the Spartan with the Tech riding in it repairing as needed...

First game in with Legion vs Chaos @ 1850

So, got in a game against a Chaos force with m generic Legion army.  I fielded:

Vigilator
Siege Breaker
3 Apothocaries (Artificer, PW)
Breacher Squad (20, 3 Grav 1 flamer)
Tactical Squad (20)
Tactical Support (10, Volkite Calviers)
Mortis DN
Thudd Gun
Spartan (dozer, Ceremite)

Joe brought a Chaos/Black Legion force based on a Rhino Rush strategy:
Chaos Lord (jump pack, Axe of rage, burning blade?, Khorne mark)
Raptors (10, 2 melta, few other upgrades)
3 Rhinos with a Squad each (Melta/Flamer in each Squad, PF/PW champ)
Hel Drake
Chaos Chaplain equivalent (BL)
Chosen Squad (loads of upgrades, in Rhino)

He went first, loaded up his Left flank with 3 Rhinos full and the Jump Squad, leaving a single Rhino on the Right for himself.  I set up in a few ruins, one had the Quad Mortar one the Support Squad and one the Tac Squad from my Left to Center.  I left my Right empty, keeping the Spartan in Reserve with the Breacher Squad in as bait for the Objective there.  Siege Breaker with the Support Squad (my Warlord) and the Vigilator with the Tac Squad to give them better cover and use his Sniper abilities.  This I think is where I made my major mistake.  Had I simply fielded the Spartan ON the Objective and dared them to come and get me I would have been in a far better position late game.  As it was, nothing game breaking, we ended up with a draw as we both killed a lot of the other side and had units locked in Assault when time expired...  I got First Blood from a Rhino kill, he got Line Breaker by being in my DZ for the bulk of the game :-)...  We both found that the big 20 man Squads with FnP and 2-3 2+ Armor guys in them were annoyingly difficult to kill off.  I did not actually lose any of my Squads entirely by the game end, but I also failed to kill off enough of his to keep an Objective clear....

So, what I learned:

1. Big Squads are good, especially the Breacher Squad.  The Blast/Template re-rolls and FnP meant that bunching up coming out of the Spartan wasn't a big deal.  Also, ALL of them having a 5++ and FnP in Assault was huge.  This will I think become a standard setup piece for my lists.  Some of the lads are inbound now, guessing I'll be sculpting/casting shields to mod more of my ancient earlier MK armors to be a full Squad...
2. While it was GREAT having Apothecaries in each Squad, I need to tool out the SGT and likely have a more HtH focused IC in each big Squad to actually be a credible threat and actually keep my lads alive when they get hit.
3. Tac Support Squad with the Volkite thing...  It was "eh"...  A minor threat to the Rhinos.  But really?  I think Flamers in a Rhino will be more the norm.  Keep it in Reserve maybe and roll on to flambe a Unit that is threatening my backfield...  Plasma or Melta are options, but 30/Marine is a lot of points...  Not seeing enough Deep Strikers to say that a unit of all Plasma and Intercept would be worth the points.  Might run the Volkite thing one more time, but 3+, even in cover is just not that great anymore...
4. The Siege Breaker and Vigilator were both pretty "eh" at best.  What I REALLY needed was more HtH power, the Sniper stuff just wasn't worth the points, nor was the Tank Hunter ability really.  SB needs to be in a list with more actual Artillery and more folks with the Comm Units to abuse LoS.  Camo cloak and Specialist Ammo was completely worthless in this case.  
5. I brought a few "let's try this" sort of things...  A single Artillery piece that was no real threat to Marines, the single AA DN, etc...  The DN might stay, but even so, that was 135 points wasted I felt.  The Artillery I have to either commit to bringing a LOT in the form of actual Arty or even 3 Mortars or not at all.  Basilisk is an option, and 2 of them with the LoS abuse possible would be brutal.  So more focused list building needed.
6. ATSKNF...  Not having it SUCKS.  I got way too spoiled playing modern Marine armies for so long that I did not realize how often it might well be REALLY important to have.

So, more focused lists...  That was the big thing I learned.  Thinking the Praetor with the Armored Spearhead will be the next list.  Though I AM looking forward to fielding some Cataphractii Terminators...  Just that they do not normally HAVE the Deep Strike option and so need the 250 point Land Raider bringing the 5 man Squad cost to 440.  The Centurion upgrades I brought were also a "that looks neat" thing, but I think they really brought nothing useful to my list as unfocused as it was.  The Praetor will be different I think.  Fewer bodies, but more focus on doing what I think must be done.

All in all though, I think it was a good, fun game...  Looking forward to seeing what else I can bring to the table...

Generic Legion @ 1850 for this week...

So, I couldn't decide between the Vigilator and the Siege Breaker to lead out the Lads, so I brought them both in this list...  Though I may well bring a Librarian in place of the Siege Breaker...  Same point cost.

Vigilator (Artificer Armor, Refractor Field)  115
Siege Breaker  95

Legion Breacher Siege Squad (20, 3 Graviton guns and Flamer, Artificer on SGT)  400
Legion Tactical Squad (20, Artificer and Combi Melta on SGT)  310
Legion Tactical Support Squad (10, Volkite Calviers, Artificer on SGT)  230
Legion Apothecaries (3, Artificer Armor, 1 w/ Augury Scanner) 180

Legion Spartan Assault Tank (Ceremite, Dozer) 320
Mortis DN (TL AC)  135
Rapier Weapon BTTY (Quad Mortar/Thudd Gun)  60


So, basically, the Breacher Squad loads up in the Spartan and rolls forward if needed.  Quad Mortar, Tac Squad and Support Squad castle up with the Vigilator leading out the Tacs for Sniper support.  Siege Breaker leads out the Support Squad to give them Tank Hunter.  Loads of Str 6 shooting, with Interceptor against Deep Strikers...  A bit light on AA, just the Mortis really being dedicated AAA.  I am also a bit concerned about the lack of real Heavy Weapons...

The other option is a Praetor leading out a few Squads of 10 in Proteus Class Land Raiders.  Breachers and Praetor ride in the Spartan.  Smaller numbers, but all in AV 14, loads of TL LC to shoot down something similar...

New Legion rules and potential lists...

So, looking over the new Legion stuff, not at all sure what Legion I will end up fielding, but suspect it will be my ancient Wolves…  Though they really did not have much to do with the Terra portion of the Heresy…  The rules for the Iron Hands are REALLY good, and should our local IH player (Ted) ever get back to playing, I think he will be pretty happy with how they play.  Looking like I just play a generic Legion for the time being.  So, what HQ do I lead them out with?

1.       Legion Praetor:  Essentially a Chapter Master, albeit without some of the current things that say, Pedro gets like the Orbital Bombardment and Honor Guard.  Though they do have the “Master of the Legion” rule which allows you to customize your Legion build through one of several optional “Rites of War”.  One is Armored Spearhead, opening up Land Raiders as Transports for every squad that could take a Rhino.  Another is Pride of the Legion making Terminators and Vet Squads Troops…  There ARE disadvantages to each, for example the Spearhead requires your hole army to be Mechanized, nothing NOT transported.  And additional Secondary VC’s for each if you lose all of what the bonus gives you.  Still, an excellent way I think to build out a force if you start with a vision for it firmly in mind from the beginning.  My test list of one has 3 Land Raiders and a Spartan.  Numerically small, but AV 14, immune to Melta and with 10 TL LC shots each turn to attempt to bring down bigger targets on a mobile platform seems a pretty decent start.  A LOT of armies simply cannot deal with so much AV 14, especially if you take the easy answer of “Melta for the Win” off the table for the most part.  The other Rites I could use to build a “Proto” BA or DA force with ease.  So, an interesting and varied choice which would allow me to tailor my force to whatever I feel like playing…

2.       Centurion upgraded to Consul:  There are a LOT more choices here.  This slot is the one where the Chaplain, Librarian, Master of the Forge, etc. all come from.  And others not seen since the RT era…  The Librarian is a safe choice for players familiar with the old standard Marine Librarian as an Army Leader…  Choosing your own Discipline means that ANY of them are open, I suspect Divination will be the most popular choice for most folks.  Not horribly expensive, but no particular advantages either I think.  Safe and steady.  I am leaning toward the Vigilator or the Siege Breaker myself as I think they fit my personal play style a lot more, and the Consul will essentially be my Avatar on the field based on my own Army experience…  Vigilator gives you a free “Sabotage” to hit an Enemy unit at the start of the game and is a Stealth guy with Sniper and the Sternguard type ammo for his Bolter.  I see him leading out a Tactical or Breacher Squad setting up in Cover and being just that damn stubborn to pull off of an objective.  The Siege Breaker gives/has Tank Hunter…  The obvious choice is to put him with a Tactical Support Squad with Volkite Caliver on each Trooper for the re-rolls against Vehicles.  Should be pretty rough against Light Tanks, etc…  Or with a Heavy Support section with Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles to pull Sky Marshall Duty.  Not seeing THAT many fliers and lacking Scoring status for the most part, hard to justify the cost…

So, those are the basic HQ choices…  I can either take the Land Raider overload or a more basic one to lead out the lads… 

For Troops, I am liking the Breacher Siege Squads more and more.  Expensive, yes, but they all have an Invulnerable save and get to re-roll saves against Templates and Blasts.  Looking at the Iron Hands rules from the Massacre book, these would be my line Squads without question.  Inv save and a 6+ FnP roll on basic Troops, and LR or LR Spartan for Transports?  The Spartan has a carry capacity of 25, so Medics and other IC have room to join the Squad for a stupid huge Squad…  Even without the IH rules, the Breachers with an attached Medic will I think be an annoyingly difficult to remove Squad for shorter games like in a Tournament.  And given that they are a basic Troop choice for one of my 2 minimum required ones…

The Basic Tactical Squad is interesting, but I am not 100% sure I like fielding just a mass of Marines armed only with Bolters.  The lack of the Special/Heavy weapons in the Squad are a major concern for me.  In an Armored Spearhead, they are just Panzer Grenadiers riding in the Proteus Class Raider jumping out at the end of the assault to claim objectives or keep the Tanks from being swarmed I guess…  They are in my initial test armies, but I think my concerns about their viability are valid…  Though, arming them like my old Grey Hunters with the rifle, pistol, and sword means they are at least “kind of” Assault Squads if I need them to be.  A unit of 20 with Apothecary and maybe the Sniper leader would be interesting I think.  Stubborn defense if they start/end up in a Ruin or other Area terrain camping on an Objective.

Speaking of the Apothecaries, I am thinking that every Squad that is on foot or mounted in a LR Spartan will have one…  Points/slots permitting of course.  NOT ICs like the BA ones, but assigned out like Wolf Guard.  So, planning is required, but it just means I have to be more careful during the list building stage of the game.  An additional Character with potentially Artificer Armor and maybe a Power Weapon or Augury Scanner who also grants the 5+ FnP roll?  Yes, please.

Otherwise, I am looking at the second book (“Horus Heresy Book 2 – Massacre”), and finding that if I were to go into the Iron Hands I would be pretty well set…  I think they pretty much work the way I’d like the Legion Marines to work.  Shoot like you are voting in Chicago, early and often.  But I think I will stay with my ancient Space Wolves at least until I see what this iteration of the history is…  As I was familiar with the old Wolves, I am hoping that at the least they do not vary TOO much from the regular Legions.  So far it is just a different unit or two, the Primarch with a few characters and maybe a different Rite of War…  So basically as I start building now, perhaps I will be OK moving it over to Wolves when they finally appear in the books.  Looking at 3-4 new Legions/year it might well be some time before they DO show up.  But the Mortis DN and the Contemptor Mortis are both there for all Legions to use.  135 points for the TL AC version, so 15 points more than a new standard DN with the same armament.  15 points for the Targeting Array giving Intercept and Skyfire during your turn and the opponent’s turn if you do not move.  Um, YES PLEASE!  A reliable AA weapon that can actually do a lot more than AA I think.  AP 4 is kind of annoying, but reliably putting 3-4 Str 7 hits on a target is a solid ability.  ALMOST at the point of putting on 2 x TL Las Cannon just for the ability to put 2 Str 9 AP 2 hits out there.  ROF is a bit low for the 155 points, but the better chance of splashing fliers might well be worth it.  But for now I HAVE several DNs with the TL AC, including one of the Dust walkers that I am repainting for my Crimson Fists…  I could realistically put together another 3-4 DNs with the TL AC if I really felt the need, but not really sure it is worth it…  So, the Mortis comes with my Legion forces like my DA forces…

There IS a Flier in the book in the Fast Attack section.  A Lightning variant.  Not sure, base model is cheap(ish), and there are 4 hard points to add custom weapon loadouts…  Still, a 2 HP AV 11 flier starting at 135 points?  20 points buys you TL AC or TL Multi Laser to supplement the TL Las Cannon, so fully outfitted for Air Superiority missions I’d snag 2-3 (probably 3) more weapons bringing it to 195 points for a very fragile Flier…  The Storm Raven is 200, has Split Fire and some pretty good weapons to go along with its Transport and Assault Vehicle roles…  Depends a lot on who hits the field first, but overall I’d say the Raven will win a lot more dogfights as its weapons have to roll well below average to Glance/Penetrate…  So, certainly NOT something I’ll be rushing out to field I think.  Neat, but…

The other units in the book are all fairly neat, but things like the Drop Pod variants seem very specifically focused.  They DID fix the stupid “Deathwind” one though.  It is expensive, but it is 5 Missile Launchers each with its own Machine Spirit so it can fire at different targets and in addition to other weapons firing, etc…  Expensive, but potentially a problem that cannot be lightly ignored on the other side of the table…  And the new version of the Lucius Class Pod…  Again, “Neat”, but unless I do a Drop Army, not of much use…  Oh, but you CAN go directly into Assault from Deep Strike with it, so potentially something to surprise and scare a lot of armies, especially if you go first… 

But options abound…  Got a game scheduled against the Joe next week assuming I make it through the nuclear stress testing Monday morning…  Getting old apparently, and all the damage from all the stupid things I have done seems to be catching up J…  But, one of the reasons I took the lower pay but stable job here at the University was the excellent Health Insurance, so now that looks like a good choice on my part…

Ancient Comm Mini

Looking over at James Wappel's amazing Imperial Fists Command Group (and a post of his previous to that), I recognized one of my ancient RT era lads as something Forge World has redone.  And MUCH better I might add, though as the old Marines go, this was not really a BAD one...  Just clearly one that I never had much use for as I never even primed it in all the years it has been in the Basement of Doom :-)

So, not bad and as I eventually choose my 30K Legion, something for me to paint up in the correct colors, but still have to say the FW minis they are coming out with are amazing...  :-)  Will probably have to sell off a rifle or three to start buying more of the resin...

Legion Lists for next week

Looking like I'll be breaking out my ancient plastic MK VI Armor lads next week...  Sadly, I DO have enough I think to field a full Legion Army, albeit in the various Camo patterns I used back then when I painted them up in the late 80's...

So far, up in the air with respect to who I will have lead out the army...  Librarians getting to simply choose a discipline?  So Divination perhaps?  The Praetor is awesome as well though...  And Siege Breaker for Tank Hunter?  Just so many things I could go with...  Librarian is a safe choice, and probably where I'll start.  I need to learn how to use them in any case.

Looking at the number of Land Raiders I can field as Transports...  Kind of imposing really.  Especially as I can pay the extra points to make them immune to Melta fire...  The Spartan with the transport capacity of 25 means I can carry either a full Terminator Squad or a stupid large 20 man Tactical Squad or Breacher Squad with attached Medics (Apothecary) and say, a Librarian or the like...  In an Assault Vehicle with a stupid number of Marines rolling out with FnP, shooting attacks, etc...  Yes, REALLY high point cost for the Deathstar, but Scoring, hard to kill and should do a lot of damage...

Thinking that a 3 Land Raider spearhead will be extremely difficult for a lot of folks to deal with locally at least...  Not entirely convinced that I could easily take on a Screamer Star or an overload of MC's, but...  Lots of Twin Linked Las Cannon around, and my Terminators will have their 4++, and the lads will go down fighting so it will I think at the least be fun to play out...

30K Marne Legion armies viable in a modern high powered environment?

I think so.  The more I look over it and the more I piece together what I could actually field myself the more impressed I am with what Forgeworld has come up with here.  Comparing it to all of the current Marine Codices I find a LOT more options.  5 ACTUAL Troop choices AND Terminators are always scoring.  Yes, 3 of the Troops choices are "support" and so cannot be used to fulfill your mandatory Troop sections, but so many options...  And no silly hoops to jump through to unlock options.  Looking at Blood Angels, while they have lots of Troop options, really only 3 are Scoring and so viable.  2 can never Score, and thus are basically Elites, and mostly useless in 6th Edition.  DA and normal Marines CAN unlock other things as Troops, but basically, Tactical and Scout Squads are it...  With the growth of "Ignore Cover", Scouts are a difficult choice from a survivability standpoint...  Tactical Squads are "Eh" at best.  4's across the board for stats and 3+ armor are nothing special these days, and the Bolter is extremely substandard.  Not enough Heavy Weapons in the Troop sections, not hugely mobile and not particularly survivable.

Looking at the Legion, I have options for  things like a Tactical Support Squad with up to 10 guys, 9 armed with Meltas, Plasmas, or Rotor Cannons or a Volkite Calvier.  The Calvier is a 30" range Str 6 Heavy 2 with the potential for extra Wounds...  But basically, 30" range Str 6 shooting :-)...   Troops, and the Augury Scanner is cheap...  Allows the use of Rapid Fire or Heavy Weapons as Interceptors against Deep Strikers...  So, that could be brutal.

Almost every SGT can be upgraded to Artificer Armor, and most line squads can be up to 20 members...  Things like the BA Medics are standard things.  So 20 FnP Marines should be able to hold out a while...  NOT cheap, but again, something that you can see in a more limited and limiting fashion in modern (ish) codices...  And the Spartan Class Raider can carry 25 models, so the FULL Squad along with ICs...

I guess THAT is the frustrating thing about the 30K vs 40K comparisons...  Using just the basic Legion list as a basis for a list as I want to field it, I can actually make just about ANY of the modern Marine based armies.  And better I think.  Honestly, I think I can field a Legion list that can go toe to toe against the Tau/Eldar silliness that is currently dominating the Internet/Tournament scene...  Scoring Terminators, cheaper Land Raiders, which CAN be immune to Melta and can be Dedicated Transports...  So, no new stuff, and perhaps having a difficult time with an overload of Fliers.  OTOH, the Fliers will likely have a hard time dealing with the Land Raiders.

:-)  Guess I'll break out the 3 ancient Land Raiders and see what the Legion can do this week...  Glad the old Army Builder program had the Heresy stuff in it these days...

Considering a 30K Army... Dammit :-)

Been reading more and more of the Horus Heresy Betrayal book and seeing the truly amazing resin minis coming out of Forgeworld...  Looking at my own actual Pre-Heresy stuff and how very primitive those pieces look in comparison?  Yeah, and the rules for the Legions are actually quite good.  Haven't played them yet, but they look balanced and fun to play...  While staying powerful enough to at least have a chance against the current top tier lists I think.  The basic Legion lists alone are ~ 60 pages, and that is just the generic stuff, the specific Legions are more...  But the first book really only has Traitor Legions which I will not play.  Second book has Salamanders and Iron Hands, neither of which are ones I am much interested in for Loyalists...  So, guess I start looking at redoing my ancient Wolves or Imperial Fists perhaps as the Crimson Fists did not exist at that time.

So, I guess I start trading for and picking up some of the more interesting "ancient" Armors...  I have a set of "Breacher Siege Squad" lads coming to become a Command Squad with Storm Shields in 40K, but guessing that they will just be the first group...  Breachers are Troops in the 30K lists, but unit starts at 10 men...  Assault Squads are also Troops...  Seems weird to me that Forgeworld can write such amazingly balanced and frankly good Army Books and GW comes out with silliness and stupidity in the form of the $50 DA book that was DoA due to the Heldrakes and massed fliers initially seen in 6th edition...  Damn shame, and I have to admit that this causes me a fair bit of concern for the long term viability of the game.

Crimson Fists vs IG

Mkay, going mostly from memory, I played against Marc last evening, 1850 points he brought his Armored IG, I had my CF, testing some different stuff...

He fielded:

Lord Commissar (2 Plasma Pistols)
Vendetta (3 TL LC, 2 HB)
Vulture (I think, FW flier, TL Punisher Gatling Cannon, HB)
2 Leman Russ w/ Punisher, MM sponsons and LC hull mount
Leman Russ Exterminator (Las Cannon)
Vet Squad (Plasmas, Carapice, in a Chimera)
Vet Squad (Meltas, Plasma?  Rode in Vendetta w/ Commissar)
Bane Wolf (MM, Chem flamer)
Line PLT, 3 squads, Commissar


I fielded:
CPT on bike w/Primarch's bolter
Command Squad on bikes w/melta, 3 Grav guns and a Medic
Bike Squad w/MM, 2 Grav guns full squad
2 Scout Squads, cloaks, bolters, snipers, etc...  2 Speeder Storms, 1 MM, 1 HF
Centurion Devastator Squad w/2 Grav Cannon, missiles and split fire
Hunter
Legion of the Damned
Storm Raven
Rifleman DN
Everything that could combat squad, did.  DN rode in the Raven, Bolter Scouts in Storms flanked

So, he got first turn...  Set up his 2 Punisher tanks on his left flank, Executioner on far right. Line PLT in the center in a building.  I sent my Centurions to my left opposite his Exterminator.  Scouts set up in same building and the far Right flank.  Had to start the Bike Squads behind cover as well.  Reserved the Command Squad and Hunter along with the Legion, Raven and Storms.  First turn was my Scouts weathering a LOT of punisher shooting along the way...  My turn was the Devastators moving up and wrecking the Chimeras (well, one Chimera and the Bane Wolf) for First Blood.

His Warlord Trait was -1 to my Reserve rolls...  So while his fliers came in and helped him collapse my Right flank by killing off the few remaining Scouts there and the bulk of my Centurions, I only had my Hunter come in.  My Bike Squads survived by making lots of cover/Armor saves, but are cut down to only a few members each.  I charge one Bike Squad into his Vets and hope for the best...  The other lasts until next turn, but...  So, lots of things die on both side, but I have more reserves so while the board looks sparse for me...  I have to get my lads to the field and let them go...

Turn 3, I have 2 Sniper Scouts alive hiding in a Ruin.  I think mostly because we both forgot about them.  This turn I get the bulk of my Reserves, all but one Scout Speeder (MM one) arrive and it starts to look good for the Marines.  The Storm Raven drops the Rifleman off on the way in, then proceeds to fire at the Punisher Tanks...  Killed one Tank and damages the other.  The Rifleman opens up on the last Chimera and kills it.  LoD and Scout Speeder damage the Executioner.  Last Biker kills off his Vets and then retreats...  To die next turn, but...

Turn 4, his damaged Vendetta drops out the Commissar's squad...  The kill off a the few remaining Bikers hanging around and I think somewhere along the line my Centurions die to the massed fire...  The Storm Raven and Scout Speeders I think off his now hovering Fliers...  To be fair, I think it would not have really mattered had they been Hovering or Flying as the Raven can target 2 with it's array of Vehicle killing weapons and almost guarantee splashing one and potentially both.  Coming in late left his Fliers exposed to a Riposte from the Claymore that is a Storm Raven.  Was good that his lads deployed from the Transport else when I splash the Vendetta, most of them die.  Pretty sure my LoD and remaining bikes in his DZ are killed, but my Scouts and a few other things shoot in and kill off his PCS.

Turn 5 is mostly cleanup, he moves to cover the objective, I shoot him off of it and consolidate.  He still has a fair number of lads in his Platoon, but Las Guns are not going to slow down my Command Squad set to crash in and deal with them in HtH...  After unloading the rest of my army into them.  I do not control the Objective at my Scouts are either in his DZ or have been forgotten and are camping out with a nice lunch started in the original Ruin.  Raven kills off his last Tank that has just vaporized my Rifleman...  Now, the Raven is completely out of real targets as MM/LC are overkill against IG Grunts, but had we continued, so be it... Over the course of 2 more turns I COULD have gotten the Objective as the one Combat Squad with a Storm woula have been able to Turbo Boost over there and deploy onto it the next turn.  Would have been easier to just kill off the remainder of the Platoon though I think...

So, the stars for his side?  Vulture with the huge number of shots on Strafing...  His Punishers were also quite good, but honestly easier for me to take down.  Their weapons have too short a range to NOT play aggressively and so they tend to move beyond their own Support elements and die.  His PCS was also quite good, though I think 2 more Flamers might have been good there.  They played "Linebacker" and dealt with Deep Strikers coming in.  Heavy Weapons in the Line Platoon would have been huge, as it was I could safely ignore that element and deal with the rest.  But they did last the game...

Stars for me?  Bikes are actually quite deadly now...  Making them Troops and Combat Squads means I can saturate the field in Scoring units...  They did well.  The Raven was amazing.  The Rifleman, not so much, but...  LoD was "Eh" at best I think.  Scouts on LS Storms were really quite good.  Flanking and rolling in with a bunch of Bolters and a Heavy Bolter re-rolling 1's to hit is nice...  And...  Well, the CPT did well, and the Grav weapons on bikes were nice, but highly situational I think.  Hunter paid for itself bringing down the then Skimming Flier, and bringing it in from Reserve will I think be SOP henceforth...   Overall the Army did well, would have been better as a White Scar force, but...

Is Forgeworld the equalizer?

So, looking at the rules for the Heresy stuff and other Forgeworld things…  Seems like therein lies the answer to some of the cheesy silliness.  Sad to say, but without a major FAQ or revision from GW it is looking more and more like FW again is the only way to achieve actual balance in the game.  Not sure if people out there are still using the FW AAA…  We used it a bit here and the Mortis class DN is  a staple for the DA players, but the things like the IG platforms?  Not really at all…  But only a small number of IG players locally, and as the main one is playing an armored force with air cover of his own, I think he is FAR less concerned about enemy fliers… 

Was reading a battle report earlier over on BOLS (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/30-40k-batrep-sons-of-horus-vs.html) that pitted a Heresy era force up against an ultra-modern Tau force loaded out with 4 (!!!) Riptides.  So, showing the ease of abuse with the ability to ally with your own army to gain additional HQ/Heavy/Whatever slots…  Something I am thinking is an issue, but what would I know…  In any case, the Chaos player brings a force essentially consisting of 3 specialist Land Raiders…  Well, one Spartan which I guess is no longer a Land Raider (MINE are, both of the bloody things J) and 2 Phobos class Raiders, all of which had Ceremite Plating meaning no Melta.  So, without Melta, that means really only MC coming over to kill them in HtH and risk being dragged down by the CC Terminators inside…  If they don’t just die to the masses Twin Linked Las Cannons that is…  8 of them in this configuration.  Might be overkill for a lot of things, but barring some lucky rolling, should put enough Wounds onto one/turn to at least scare them…  Yes, 4 are going to be a problem, but really unless they play hyper aggressively they can’t deal with the 3 heavily armored Tanks themselves.  The Eldar Wraithknight with the Str 10 D Cannon can probably…  Maybe…  But becoming immune to the Melta effect is HUGE.  Thinking I will be looking at one of the Achilles Class as they have the Quad Mortar/Thunderfire Cannon and are immune to Lance as well as the Melta weapons.  Transport Capacity of 6 though, so it’ll be a Command Squad or Honor Guard…  A fitting ride I think for a Chapter Master or Captain though…

I guess I am really concerned that the only way to make a competitive army without playing one of the 2 uber armies at the moment is to find something equally broken in the Forgeworld area…  Locally we play them I think and most big tourneys seem to allow them.  Just feels wrong.  But I think I have a line on a modern Spartan Class Tank from an old Army buddy of mine…  Apparently I have too many magazines, clips, etc. for some ancient firearms, and so…  J 

Since I have a BUNCH of pre-Heresy stuff, and the FW resin looks amazing, kind of looking forward to putting together a 30K army...

Pics of works in progress and a bit more...

So, just a few pics of the things I am working on...  Nothing too extensive, but getting some ancient models ready to hit the table...

So, building a Land Speeder Storm, Bastions, Centurion Devastator stand ins, Swooping Hawks, Storm Talon stand-in, some ancient Scouts with Bolters and  the Marine w/ Shuriken Catapult to stand in as a Grav Gun I think...

Looking at my armies and current projects in the Basement of Doom © I have way too much on that wee painting table.  And frankly finding less and less motivation to actually paint them to maybe play them…

1.      Still stripping and repainting my Praetorian IG, but that is a LONG term project with several hundred models.  And riding the motorcycle, not a practical army to be transporting.  Rumor has them getting a new Codex early next year.  I think they are still way too good in this edition, though I know I do not be any means have an “optimized” force playing mine as a Light Rifles Company.  Still, while they are NOT unbeaten while I play them, I think I have only lost to gimmick setups for a LONG time.  By Gimmick I mean the Scenario allowed say, an Assault based horde army to set up at the mid-point, something like 12” away from my line as I was packed into a corner.  If I had more than a single turn to actually fire before getting overrun…  But that was 5^th edition.  In 6^th I think they still do an amazingly powerful gun line.  Only real struggles are keeping something like Daemons at bay.  But I have Aegis lines, Hydras, Vendettas, etc…  Sadly, running them with Wolves as allies for Psychic Defenses and effectively unbreakable blobs is not a bad thing.  Silly tricks like DA or GK allied in give things like 4++ Fearless blobs or other things really outside of  balance…  NOT really suitable for fast paced Tournament games, so unlikely to see them there…  And frankly, the modern gun lines like Eldar Serpent Spam can throw out a LOT of firepower.  More below…
2.        DA…  Yes, I have a BUNCH of them still in various stages of painting.  Picked up one of the new Terminator Squad boxes…  And repainting/finishing up a bunch of my old models.  I CAN play a pretty good Dual Wing or Deathwing force…  Just such a low model count for overpriced things and the new gun lines put out SO MUCH fire that I’ll roll enough 1’s to just die.  Oh, and the bikes just evaporate to the Heldrakes.  No saves, wound on a 2 or 3 depending if it is the fly-by or flamer…  No defenses possible, unless you somehow get them Invulnerable saves…  Possible, but NOT cheap and that bunches you or slows you down so much…   And overall, the DA book still leaves a bitter taste as it had SUCH potential but ended up just being really bad all around.  Niche allies at best, sadly…
3.        Eldar…  Yes, I stopped painting and playing them for pretty much the opposite reason.  They are just way too good.  The Wave Serpent is insane, and since GW is “somewhat lax” doing things like writing, clarifying or providing FAQs for their rules you get some insane but completely legal combos.  Skyshield with Wave Serpents being the one that comes to mind here.  2+ cover save for a bunch of Vehicles that depending on how the TO rules might be immune to “ignores cover”.  And good luck getting up there to deal with them in HtH.  MOST tournaments do not have giant pieces of blocking terrain at the center of every table, and those are the only ones that I am seeing things like Chaos/Tyranids coming out on top with.  Alpha Strike or no, SO much shooting that it gets silly and they are immune to so much counter fire.  Kind of irking, I was really enjoying playing them in a non “optimized” fashion with Spiritseer and Wraiths as Troops, etc…  There are just SO many good things in the book, and it was interesting to play until this.  I felt it was overpowered before this and I felt pretty bad bringing them to play against folks bringing “fluffy” Chaos Marines, GK or the like, but this just put it way over the top.  Point and click for the win at the events, boring to play and boring to play against. 
4.      And finally the Crimson Fists I am working on now...  So far they are pretty good.  I am enjoying playing the Army and they are doing fairly well...  OK, strike that, they are kicking much ass.  But I have yet to face one of the forces I think will be a hard counter to them.  And unfortunately there are some armies that are simply hard counters to EVERYTHING.  Based on some very poorly written rules and their interaction with some very unclear things, it has led to a situation where I fear the game itself is just broken.  The problem is that until some of the stupidity is sorted out, not sure ANY Army will work.  Frankly, at this point barring local house rulings or a LOT of the major TOs  getting together and making an effectively universal ruling it is simply not worth playing in Tournaments I think...  Locally I think we'll avoid this, but...

 OK, that wound up more of a rant than I was thinking of...  And I haven't even touched all of my armies.  Fleshtearers are still "eh" at best, GK's have been passed I think.  Though ironically they would work very well against the Demons that have apparently been doing well in some of the Tournaments the way I play them at least...  I'm odd I guess as I actually play the GK with actual Knights as the focus and in fact the main part of the force...  But they lose easily I think to too many other things...  Fleshtearers are a Shock army.  I will be able to surprise some people attacking immediately and with everything, holding nothing back and taking chances not many others would...  Works once against most people, but once they have seen this thing, it will not work again, or not often...