Legion Lists for next week

Looking like I'll be breaking out my ancient plastic MK VI Armor lads next week...  Sadly, I DO have enough I think to field a full Legion Army, albeit in the various Camo patterns I used back then when I painted them up in the late 80's...

So far, up in the air with respect to who I will have lead out the army...  Librarians getting to simply choose a discipline?  So Divination perhaps?  The Praetor is awesome as well though...  And Siege Breaker for Tank Hunter?  Just so many things I could go with...  Librarian is a safe choice, and probably where I'll start.  I need to learn how to use them in any case.

Looking at the number of Land Raiders I can field as Transports...  Kind of imposing really.  Especially as I can pay the extra points to make them immune to Melta fire...  The Spartan with the transport capacity of 25 means I can carry either a full Terminator Squad or a stupid large 20 man Tactical Squad or Breacher Squad with attached Medics (Apothecary) and say, a Librarian or the like...  In an Assault Vehicle with a stupid number of Marines rolling out with FnP, shooting attacks, etc...  Yes, REALLY high point cost for the Deathstar, but Scoring, hard to kill and should do a lot of damage...

Thinking that a 3 Land Raider spearhead will be extremely difficult for a lot of folks to deal with locally at least...  Not entirely convinced that I could easily take on a Screamer Star or an overload of MC's, but...  Lots of Twin Linked Las Cannon around, and my Terminators will have their 4++, and the lads will go down fighting so it will I think at the least be fun to play out...

30K Marne Legion armies viable in a modern high powered environment?

I think so.  The more I look over it and the more I piece together what I could actually field myself the more impressed I am with what Forgeworld has come up with here.  Comparing it to all of the current Marine Codices I find a LOT more options.  5 ACTUAL Troop choices AND Terminators are always scoring.  Yes, 3 of the Troops choices are "support" and so cannot be used to fulfill your mandatory Troop sections, but so many options...  And no silly hoops to jump through to unlock options.  Looking at Blood Angels, while they have lots of Troop options, really only 3 are Scoring and so viable.  2 can never Score, and thus are basically Elites, and mostly useless in 6th Edition.  DA and normal Marines CAN unlock other things as Troops, but basically, Tactical and Scout Squads are it...  With the growth of "Ignore Cover", Scouts are a difficult choice from a survivability standpoint...  Tactical Squads are "Eh" at best.  4's across the board for stats and 3+ armor are nothing special these days, and the Bolter is extremely substandard.  Not enough Heavy Weapons in the Troop sections, not hugely mobile and not particularly survivable.

Looking at the Legion, I have options for  things like a Tactical Support Squad with up to 10 guys, 9 armed with Meltas, Plasmas, or Rotor Cannons or a Volkite Calvier.  The Calvier is a 30" range Str 6 Heavy 2 with the potential for extra Wounds...  But basically, 30" range Str 6 shooting :-)...   Troops, and the Augury Scanner is cheap...  Allows the use of Rapid Fire or Heavy Weapons as Interceptors against Deep Strikers...  So, that could be brutal.

Almost every SGT can be upgraded to Artificer Armor, and most line squads can be up to 20 members...  Things like the BA Medics are standard things.  So 20 FnP Marines should be able to hold out a while...  NOT cheap, but again, something that you can see in a more limited and limiting fashion in modern (ish) codices...  And the Spartan Class Raider can carry 25 models, so the FULL Squad along with ICs...

I guess THAT is the frustrating thing about the 30K vs 40K comparisons...  Using just the basic Legion list as a basis for a list as I want to field it, I can actually make just about ANY of the modern Marine based armies.  And better I think.  Honestly, I think I can field a Legion list that can go toe to toe against the Tau/Eldar silliness that is currently dominating the Internet/Tournament scene...  Scoring Terminators, cheaper Land Raiders, which CAN be immune to Melta and can be Dedicated Transports...  So, no new stuff, and perhaps having a difficult time with an overload of Fliers.  OTOH, the Fliers will likely have a hard time dealing with the Land Raiders.

:-)  Guess I'll break out the 3 ancient Land Raiders and see what the Legion can do this week...  Glad the old Army Builder program had the Heresy stuff in it these days...

Considering a 30K Army... Dammit :-)

Been reading more and more of the Horus Heresy Betrayal book and seeing the truly amazing resin minis coming out of Forgeworld...  Looking at my own actual Pre-Heresy stuff and how very primitive those pieces look in comparison?  Yeah, and the rules for the Legions are actually quite good.  Haven't played them yet, but they look balanced and fun to play...  While staying powerful enough to at least have a chance against the current top tier lists I think.  The basic Legion lists alone are ~ 60 pages, and that is just the generic stuff, the specific Legions are more...  But the first book really only has Traitor Legions which I will not play.  Second book has Salamanders and Iron Hands, neither of which are ones I am much interested in for Loyalists...  So, guess I start looking at redoing my ancient Wolves or Imperial Fists perhaps as the Crimson Fists did not exist at that time.

So, I guess I start trading for and picking up some of the more interesting "ancient" Armors...  I have a set of "Breacher Siege Squad" lads coming to become a Command Squad with Storm Shields in 40K, but guessing that they will just be the first group...  Breachers are Troops in the 30K lists, but unit starts at 10 men...  Assault Squads are also Troops...  Seems weird to me that Forgeworld can write such amazingly balanced and frankly good Army Books and GW comes out with silliness and stupidity in the form of the $50 DA book that was DoA due to the Heldrakes and massed fliers initially seen in 6th edition...  Damn shame, and I have to admit that this causes me a fair bit of concern for the long term viability of the game.

Crimson Fists vs IG

Mkay, going mostly from memory, I played against Marc last evening, 1850 points he brought his Armored IG, I had my CF, testing some different stuff...

He fielded:

Lord Commissar (2 Plasma Pistols)
Vendetta (3 TL LC, 2 HB)
Vulture (I think, FW flier, TL Punisher Gatling Cannon, HB)
2 Leman Russ w/ Punisher, MM sponsons and LC hull mount
Leman Russ Exterminator (Las Cannon)
Vet Squad (Plasmas, Carapice, in a Chimera)
Vet Squad (Meltas, Plasma?  Rode in Vendetta w/ Commissar)
Bane Wolf (MM, Chem flamer)
Line PLT, 3 squads, Commissar


I fielded:
CPT on bike w/Primarch's bolter
Command Squad on bikes w/melta, 3 Grav guns and a Medic
Bike Squad w/MM, 2 Grav guns full squad
2 Scout Squads, cloaks, bolters, snipers, etc...  2 Speeder Storms, 1 MM, 1 HF
Centurion Devastator Squad w/2 Grav Cannon, missiles and split fire
Hunter
Legion of the Damned
Storm Raven
Rifleman DN
Everything that could combat squad, did.  DN rode in the Raven, Bolter Scouts in Storms flanked

So, he got first turn...  Set up his 2 Punisher tanks on his left flank, Executioner on far right. Line PLT in the center in a building.  I sent my Centurions to my left opposite his Exterminator.  Scouts set up in same building and the far Right flank.  Had to start the Bike Squads behind cover as well.  Reserved the Command Squad and Hunter along with the Legion, Raven and Storms.  First turn was my Scouts weathering a LOT of punisher shooting along the way...  My turn was the Devastators moving up and wrecking the Chimeras (well, one Chimera and the Bane Wolf) for First Blood.

His Warlord Trait was -1 to my Reserve rolls...  So while his fliers came in and helped him collapse my Right flank by killing off the few remaining Scouts there and the bulk of my Centurions, I only had my Hunter come in.  My Bike Squads survived by making lots of cover/Armor saves, but are cut down to only a few members each.  I charge one Bike Squad into his Vets and hope for the best...  The other lasts until next turn, but...  So, lots of things die on both side, but I have more reserves so while the board looks sparse for me...  I have to get my lads to the field and let them go...

Turn 3, I have 2 Sniper Scouts alive hiding in a Ruin.  I think mostly because we both forgot about them.  This turn I get the bulk of my Reserves, all but one Scout Speeder (MM one) arrive and it starts to look good for the Marines.  The Storm Raven drops the Rifleman off on the way in, then proceeds to fire at the Punisher Tanks...  Killed one Tank and damages the other.  The Rifleman opens up on the last Chimera and kills it.  LoD and Scout Speeder damage the Executioner.  Last Biker kills off his Vets and then retreats...  To die next turn, but...

Turn 4, his damaged Vendetta drops out the Commissar's squad...  The kill off a the few remaining Bikers hanging around and I think somewhere along the line my Centurions die to the massed fire...  The Storm Raven and Scout Speeders I think off his now hovering Fliers...  To be fair, I think it would not have really mattered had they been Hovering or Flying as the Raven can target 2 with it's array of Vehicle killing weapons and almost guarantee splashing one and potentially both.  Coming in late left his Fliers exposed to a Riposte from the Claymore that is a Storm Raven.  Was good that his lads deployed from the Transport else when I splash the Vendetta, most of them die.  Pretty sure my LoD and remaining bikes in his DZ are killed, but my Scouts and a few other things shoot in and kill off his PCS.

Turn 5 is mostly cleanup, he moves to cover the objective, I shoot him off of it and consolidate.  He still has a fair number of lads in his Platoon, but Las Guns are not going to slow down my Command Squad set to crash in and deal with them in HtH...  After unloading the rest of my army into them.  I do not control the Objective at my Scouts are either in his DZ or have been forgotten and are camping out with a nice lunch started in the original Ruin.  Raven kills off his last Tank that has just vaporized my Rifleman...  Now, the Raven is completely out of real targets as MM/LC are overkill against IG Grunts, but had we continued, so be it... Over the course of 2 more turns I COULD have gotten the Objective as the one Combat Squad with a Storm woula have been able to Turbo Boost over there and deploy onto it the next turn.  Would have been easier to just kill off the remainder of the Platoon though I think...

So, the stars for his side?  Vulture with the huge number of shots on Strafing...  His Punishers were also quite good, but honestly easier for me to take down.  Their weapons have too short a range to NOT play aggressively and so they tend to move beyond their own Support elements and die.  His PCS was also quite good, though I think 2 more Flamers might have been good there.  They played "Linebacker" and dealt with Deep Strikers coming in.  Heavy Weapons in the Line Platoon would have been huge, as it was I could safely ignore that element and deal with the rest.  But they did last the game...

Stars for me?  Bikes are actually quite deadly now...  Making them Troops and Combat Squads means I can saturate the field in Scoring units...  They did well.  The Raven was amazing.  The Rifleman, not so much, but...  LoD was "Eh" at best I think.  Scouts on LS Storms were really quite good.  Flanking and rolling in with a bunch of Bolters and a Heavy Bolter re-rolling 1's to hit is nice...  And...  Well, the CPT did well, and the Grav weapons on bikes were nice, but highly situational I think.  Hunter paid for itself bringing down the then Skimming Flier, and bringing it in from Reserve will I think be SOP henceforth...   Overall the Army did well, would have been better as a White Scar force, but...

Is Forgeworld the equalizer?

So, looking at the rules for the Heresy stuff and other Forgeworld things…  Seems like therein lies the answer to some of the cheesy silliness.  Sad to say, but without a major FAQ or revision from GW it is looking more and more like FW again is the only way to achieve actual balance in the game.  Not sure if people out there are still using the FW AAA…  We used it a bit here and the Mortis class DN is  a staple for the DA players, but the things like the IG platforms?  Not really at all…  But only a small number of IG players locally, and as the main one is playing an armored force with air cover of his own, I think he is FAR less concerned about enemy fliers… 

Was reading a battle report earlier over on BOLS (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/30-40k-batrep-sons-of-horus-vs.html) that pitted a Heresy era force up against an ultra-modern Tau force loaded out with 4 (!!!) Riptides.  So, showing the ease of abuse with the ability to ally with your own army to gain additional HQ/Heavy/Whatever slots…  Something I am thinking is an issue, but what would I know…  In any case, the Chaos player brings a force essentially consisting of 3 specialist Land Raiders…  Well, one Spartan which I guess is no longer a Land Raider (MINE are, both of the bloody things J) and 2 Phobos class Raiders, all of which had Ceremite Plating meaning no Melta.  So, without Melta, that means really only MC coming over to kill them in HtH and risk being dragged down by the CC Terminators inside…  If they don’t just die to the masses Twin Linked Las Cannons that is…  8 of them in this configuration.  Might be overkill for a lot of things, but barring some lucky rolling, should put enough Wounds onto one/turn to at least scare them…  Yes, 4 are going to be a problem, but really unless they play hyper aggressively they can’t deal with the 3 heavily armored Tanks themselves.  The Eldar Wraithknight with the Str 10 D Cannon can probably…  Maybe…  But becoming immune to the Melta effect is HUGE.  Thinking I will be looking at one of the Achilles Class as they have the Quad Mortar/Thunderfire Cannon and are immune to Lance as well as the Melta weapons.  Transport Capacity of 6 though, so it’ll be a Command Squad or Honor Guard…  A fitting ride I think for a Chapter Master or Captain though…

I guess I am really concerned that the only way to make a competitive army without playing one of the 2 uber armies at the moment is to find something equally broken in the Forgeworld area…  Locally we play them I think and most big tourneys seem to allow them.  Just feels wrong.  But I think I have a line on a modern Spartan Class Tank from an old Army buddy of mine…  Apparently I have too many magazines, clips, etc. for some ancient firearms, and so…  J 

Since I have a BUNCH of pre-Heresy stuff, and the FW resin looks amazing, kind of looking forward to putting together a 30K army...

Pics of works in progress and a bit more...

So, just a few pics of the things I am working on...  Nothing too extensive, but getting some ancient models ready to hit the table...

So, building a Land Speeder Storm, Bastions, Centurion Devastator stand ins, Swooping Hawks, Storm Talon stand-in, some ancient Scouts with Bolters and  the Marine w/ Shuriken Catapult to stand in as a Grav Gun I think...

Looking at my armies and current projects in the Basement of Doom © I have way too much on that wee painting table.  And frankly finding less and less motivation to actually paint them to maybe play them…

1.      Still stripping and repainting my Praetorian IG, but that is a LONG term project with several hundred models.  And riding the motorcycle, not a practical army to be transporting.  Rumor has them getting a new Codex early next year.  I think they are still way too good in this edition, though I know I do not be any means have an “optimized” force playing mine as a Light Rifles Company.  Still, while they are NOT unbeaten while I play them, I think I have only lost to gimmick setups for a LONG time.  By Gimmick I mean the Scenario allowed say, an Assault based horde army to set up at the mid-point, something like 12” away from my line as I was packed into a corner.  If I had more than a single turn to actually fire before getting overrun…  But that was 5^th edition.  In 6^th I think they still do an amazingly powerful gun line.  Only real struggles are keeping something like Daemons at bay.  But I have Aegis lines, Hydras, Vendettas, etc…  Sadly, running them with Wolves as allies for Psychic Defenses and effectively unbreakable blobs is not a bad thing.  Silly tricks like DA or GK allied in give things like 4++ Fearless blobs or other things really outside of  balance…  NOT really suitable for fast paced Tournament games, so unlikely to see them there…  And frankly, the modern gun lines like Eldar Serpent Spam can throw out a LOT of firepower.  More below…
2.        DA…  Yes, I have a BUNCH of them still in various stages of painting.  Picked up one of the new Terminator Squad boxes…  And repainting/finishing up a bunch of my old models.  I CAN play a pretty good Dual Wing or Deathwing force…  Just such a low model count for overpriced things and the new gun lines put out SO MUCH fire that I’ll roll enough 1’s to just die.  Oh, and the bikes just evaporate to the Heldrakes.  No saves, wound on a 2 or 3 depending if it is the fly-by or flamer…  No defenses possible, unless you somehow get them Invulnerable saves…  Possible, but NOT cheap and that bunches you or slows you down so much…   And overall, the DA book still leaves a bitter taste as it had SUCH potential but ended up just being really bad all around.  Niche allies at best, sadly…
3.        Eldar…  Yes, I stopped painting and playing them for pretty much the opposite reason.  They are just way too good.  The Wave Serpent is insane, and since GW is “somewhat lax” doing things like writing, clarifying or providing FAQs for their rules you get some insane but completely legal combos.  Skyshield with Wave Serpents being the one that comes to mind here.  2+ cover save for a bunch of Vehicles that depending on how the TO rules might be immune to “ignores cover”.  And good luck getting up there to deal with them in HtH.  MOST tournaments do not have giant pieces of blocking terrain at the center of every table, and those are the only ones that I am seeing things like Chaos/Tyranids coming out on top with.  Alpha Strike or no, SO much shooting that it gets silly and they are immune to so much counter fire.  Kind of irking, I was really enjoying playing them in a non “optimized” fashion with Spiritseer and Wraiths as Troops, etc…  There are just SO many good things in the book, and it was interesting to play until this.  I felt it was overpowered before this and I felt pretty bad bringing them to play against folks bringing “fluffy” Chaos Marines, GK or the like, but this just put it way over the top.  Point and click for the win at the events, boring to play and boring to play against. 
4.      And finally the Crimson Fists I am working on now...  So far they are pretty good.  I am enjoying playing the Army and they are doing fairly well...  OK, strike that, they are kicking much ass.  But I have yet to face one of the forces I think will be a hard counter to them.  And unfortunately there are some armies that are simply hard counters to EVERYTHING.  Based on some very poorly written rules and their interaction with some very unclear things, it has led to a situation where I fear the game itself is just broken.  The problem is that until some of the stupidity is sorted out, not sure ANY Army will work.  Frankly, at this point barring local house rulings or a LOT of the major TOs  getting together and making an effectively universal ruling it is simply not worth playing in Tournaments I think...  Locally I think we'll avoid this, but...

 OK, that wound up more of a rant than I was thinking of...  And I haven't even touched all of my armies.  Fleshtearers are still "eh" at best, GK's have been passed I think.  Though ironically they would work very well against the Demons that have apparently been doing well in some of the Tournaments the way I play them at least...  I'm odd I guess as I actually play the GK with actual Knights as the focus and in fact the main part of the force...  But they lose easily I think to too many other things...  Fleshtearers are a Shock army.  I will be able to surprise some people attacking immediately and with everything, holding nothing back and taking chances not many others would...  Works once against most people, but once they have seen this thing, it will not work again, or not often...

Next Week, something completely different and the current meta?

So, looking to try something completely different…  Crimson Fists without Pedro Kantor.  Thinking that a Bike CPT gains me a Command Squad and access to Bike Squads (of 5 or more models) as Troops.

Captain (Bike, Primarch’s Wrath, LC)  145

Command Squad (Bikes, 3 Grav Guns, Melta Gun, Medic)  205

Bike Squad (8, Attack Bike w/MM, 2 Grav Guns) 253

Scout Squad (10, 4 Sniper, HB, Cloaks, LSS w/MM) 142+55

Bike Squad (8, Attack Bike w/MM, 2 Plasma Guns) 253

Centurion Devastators (LC, 2 Grav, Scope, ML) 290

Thunderfire Cannon  100

And…  Well, we tend to play at the 1850 level, so ~300 more points.  Hunter probably, or a Storm Raven for the last Heavy slot.  If Hunter then probably the Storm Talon and…  Well, more Cents?  Or the Legion again I suppose?  Dunno, something to think about…

Really, the above Army SHOULD be fielded as a White Scars one…  +1 cover save, Hit and Run, auto pass terrain tests and +1 Str Hammer of Wrath hits?  Essentially for free…  Yes, they lose the Tank Hunter for the Centurions and swap Bolters on Scouts for Shotguns I guess…  But my army is painted up AS Crimson Fists, so…

So, looking at the current local meta I think things are really starting to balance out.  Yes, the Marines still have to be aware of the Heldrake problem…  But at this point I do not feel totally outclassed by the Drakes.  Between my own fliers and some actual AAA I can field I have some things to threaten them and I’ve learned how to deal with them I guess…  Now, Chaos forces based on the Heldrakes fall pretty easily to the Tau and Eldar I think.  In turn, the Tau/Eldar based on the big nasty MCs they have fall to the Grav weapons fielded by the new Marines.  So, back to a more Rock-Paper-Scissors setup I think…  Necrons are still a tough army, but with the both massed and/or twin linked firepower and increased number of AA platforms or fliers I think their fliers are fairly weak.

Some of the assumptions made above really depend on a few very key rulings.  Primarily the one about “Ignores Cover” and that rule’s interaction with Vehicles.  RAW, it does specify “wound”, and as Vehicles do not have wounds it would in the strictest reading of the rules mean that it does not work against Vehicles.  This leads to silliness like Eldar Wave Serpents with Holo Fields sitting on a Skyshield Platform for the 2+ cover save in addition to the 4++ save the platform gives, should you get around the perimeter cover save…  THAT makes the Eldar stupidly overpowered, and it is not how we’ve been playing locally at least….  But that is not universal by any means.  The other is sort of related, the Grav weapons need some further clarification.  Do they ignore cover as they do NOT roll on the vehicle damage chart because they do not cause a glance or penetrating hit?  Also, should a vehicle get hit by 2 of them, does it take 2 Hull Points and immobilize the Vehicle OR does it take 3 HP as the second immobilized result strips another HP per the Vehicle damage chart?  I’d say it takes 3 HP because the result on the chart doesn’t specify “if this number is rolled”, and they recently FAQ’d rolling a 1 on difficult terrain for a Vehicle and immobilizing yourself does strip a HP as well…  So, IMO that would be consistent.  Yes, I know, applying a standard to which GW has not maintained over the years, consistency…  Still, would be a good thing I think to have officially clarified…